Questions regarding markings on a Colt Dragoon.

drm3m

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The markings below appear on the Colt Dragoon shown below.



The Crown over R marking shown below is not Belgian....what is it?
It has two little ears above the crown instead of three.



The grip marking U over 54 is a mystery----possibly military......but I can't find anything like it.
Does anyone have any ideas?



This Dragoon also has British proof marks crown over V and crown over GP with Col.Colt London engraved on the top of the barrel.



Thanks for any help.

David
 
Nice find.
Possible Queens Crown marking, Queen Victoria would have been on the British throne during the period Colt Dragoons were in production.
The labeling of the third picture, "BritishcrownedGPproofonCylinder_zps00faceab.p ng", and the British Proof Marks would make this likely.
 
I m still drooling from seeing some of these in the other thread, but my brain has started to work again.

I am wondering if the "R" might be for "Rechnung" ("Adjusted") in regards to the long-range sights on this unique gun.

Just wonderful, that such a thing can survive these past 160 years of madness!
 
That is a very fine specimen, I am wondering if it is a Hartford English Dragoon made in London from parts from Hartford in the serial number range from 1-700 some 200 of which were sent to the U.S. for use in the Civil War.
I have never seen a Dragoon cut for a stock with target sights before....very interesting.
 
This Colt Dragoon does not belong to me.

It belongs to a fellow CGN member....I have been helping with some research as I have some of the photos on Photobucket that can be posted on this Forum.

The research on this London Dragoon has been extensive involving a knowledgeable fellow in Belgium as well as the fellow who recently wrote the book on Colt Brevets- Roy Marcot.

There are several aspects to this revolver that are very puzzling.
-It has British proof marks. Crown over V and Crown over GP.
-It has Col.Colt London engraved on the barrel.
-It has Colt's Patent on the frame.
-It has Crown over R on the revolver in several places which are not typical Belgian markings...as well as on the stock.

With the Col.Colt London barrel marking and the Colt's Patent on the frame....why does it have the Colt Brevette barrel marking.....most unusual?

Smellie most of the Dragoon Colts with a stock have the three leaf rear sight ...so it it is unlikely that the Crown/R would suggest this modification. (Based on what I have seen on the Internet.)

-There is a marking on the barrel---Colt Brevette...which is mis-spelled.
Roy Marcot's book addresses this mis-spelling issue.

The U marking on the grip and stock remain a mystery.
I sent photos to a very savvy collector of Uhlan stuff and he said the U markings on the Colt are not Uhlan.

SO....we still have a mystery with the U marking and the style of Crown over R.

Nobody ever said that collecting different types of guns would be straight forward and easy.
I think that this Colt Dragoon might fit into that catagory.

HOWER, if this Colt Dragoon fits into the catagory of the Hartford-English Dragoon catagory....Joseph Rosa in his book "Col. Colt London" suggests that this is the most rare of all the London Colts produced????

I have no idea?

David

Some photos from Photobucket.

The British proof markings.





Barrel markings.





Colt's Patent marking.



Crown over R marking.








Some of the serial numbers.



Some other photos.






Still puzzled ......as is my collector friend that owns the Colt Dragoon.

David

A couple of books on the subject.



 
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Again....WOW!

Colt did have some factories in England.....Maybe that English factory subcontracted to a Belgian firm for some parts??

I have a large frame pinfire that is a Grosfels and Brevette, I imagine theat factory would have the machines and expertise to make barrels and cylinders like this.

So pardon my boldness BUT I must know......Price....??? are we talking 10 - 20 grand....perhaps more??
 
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Musketfire, I really can't comment on values.
Firstly....because it does not belong to me.
Secondly.....I have no idea.
Thirdly.....some of these Third Model Colt Dragoons with stocks have been sold on U.S. auction sites.
They were Hartford manufactured Dragoons .....I have not seen any of the Hartford-English Dragoons with stock sell.

The stuff below are scans from the pages of Joseph Rosa's book regarding the Hartford-English Dragoons for they that are interesting in reading about this subject.






David

This is a high end U.S dealer with a Hartford Third Model Dragoon with stock.

http://www.michaelsimens.com/historical-antiques-for-sale/colt-3rd-model-dragoon-html.html
 
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The key word on the barrel is "Brevette" - that indicates the revolver was manufactured under a license from Colt - most likely in Belgium. .

As to value??? These are much more rare than Colts manufactured in the U.S.A.
 
Could this have been a private purchase for a British serving officer on his way to the Crimean War?

If Sam Colt did try to drum up business interest in Russia or Turkey, it would make perfect sense that this historical piece would originate in London.
 
In the 2014 issue of Gun Digest, page 229, the "crown" over "R" marking is shown on a Continental "constabulary" style revolver. The caption for the picture reads;
" The "Crown-over-R" mark was introduced in 1894 and is used on firearms with rifles barrels. The accompanying stamp is a Belgian inspectors mark".
Rifle may be a misprint for rifled.
The difference between the crown on the Colt with 2 bumps, the one in the book has 3 bumps. There is a correct term for the bumps but I can't remember it. The 2 bump may just be an early version.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

On Centaur 1860 Colt Copies made in Belgian.
Crown over R (sideways):Mark for rifled barrels 1884 through Feb. 26, 1968 (sideways).
Pistols made after February 1968 to 1973 do not have these marks.
On the left side of the barrel lug.
http://www.1960nma.org/ProofHouse/Proof House Markings-20.11.10.htm

Also http://bertock.home.xs4all.nl/page26/page32/page32.html

This reference lists a "Crown over R", for rifled barrels since 1852'
http://www.castpics.net/subsite/ProofMarks/Proofmarks.pdf
 
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Thanks 10x , Brutus, and sail32 for your contribution to this thread.

We have been in contact with a collector in Belgium and the "style" of the Crown/R and the U/54 markings still remain a mystery for which we may never have an explanation.

Some of his comments;

- The mention "Colt Breveté" on the barrel is NOT correct, because it contains a spelling error (Brevette with 2 t ). Besides, it is written in one line instead of 2, and in a different letter type. Also, there are digs and dents that appear to be more recent and make me a bit suspicious.

- I see NO Liège proofmarks whatsoever on the gun, only the official London marks. This is NOT consistant with guns made in Liège under official Colt license. The true Colt Breveté were to be proofed at the Liège proofhouse, and there (and there only) the mention "Colt Breveté" in 2 lines was stamped on the gun, always with the same dies. This mark is an official acceptance mark of Colt's agent Devos-Sera and later Santhill,that confirms that the gun meets all Colt requirements.

Since Colt had a factory in London in those years, where some Dragoons were assembled as well, it is highly doubtful that he would have allowed Belgian licensed makers to export their products to a country where he was active, or where he had been granted patents for his original products.
Besides, if imported from abroad by a British dealer, the gun would never bear the mentions "Col Colt London", for those were official markings of the London Colt factory.

So, I still believe that the gun is a true 3rd Model Colt Dragoon, assembled in London from unmarked Hartford parts, and marked and proofed in London. To me, the erroneous marking "Colt Brevette" on the barrel is bogus, and I see no reason at all for its presence on a true Colt.


The U/54 mark on the grip and the shoulder stock are unknown to me, but it could be a British/Canadian/Australian military stamp of some kind; I have no idea. I can not identify the crown over R stamp on the front face of the cylinder either, but I'm sure it is not an official Belgian mark.

I don't see any difference with the scene on common American Dragoons; besides, I don't think a faker would have copied the Ormsby signature, because markings are the most difficult elements to fake. So far I still believe the revolver is a true Colt Dragoon, assembled in the London factory from Hartford parts, and finished, marked and proofed there. The only thing is that I can't explain the bogus Colt Brevette marking.

Cylinder scene (Rangers fighting Indians) with the Ormsby N.Y. marking found on Colt Dragoons cylinders with S/N 2470 and showing British proofmarks.
Brevete (Belgian) guns would not have this cylinder scene.











This revolver 'might' be described as an Hartford-English Dragoon which first made its appearance in 1854.

Still some mysteries!

David
 
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W.L. Ormsby scenes on Sam colt's revolvers. (cylinders)....for they that are interested?

Sam Colt.



The Indian Rangers fight scene seen on his Dragoon cylinders.



BOOK REVIEW: COLT CYLINDER SCENES 1847-1851
As announced earlier in The E-Sylum, Arthur Tobias has written a new book relating to W.L. Ormsby, author of one of the rarest books in U.S. numismatic Literature, Bank Note Engraving. He kindly provided me with a review copy and furnished some excerpts from the text. Here they are, along with my comments.

From the Introduction:

This is a book about the three most widely known cylinder Scenes engraved by Waterman Lilly Ormsby for Sam Colt, used on some of the most popular products of that illustrious gun maker. In the order in which they appeared on the historical stage they are the Texas Rangers and Comanches Fight (Rangers), the Stagecoach Holdup (Stagecoach) and the Naval Engagement (Naval) Scenes. This book is also about Ormsby the artist and engraver and his methods. His ingenuity, creativity and personality are central to the story of the Colt Scenes and therefore the revolvers they graced.

Books like Arthur's are among the favorites in my numismatic library - the ones that are interesting and relevant to numismatics, yet not directly about numismatics. It's books like these that cross over into other areas that illuminate the whole of someone's life work - not just the numismatic parts, but all of it.

Through this little volume I learned a great deal about Waterman Lilly Ormsby, his life's work, his talents and his business projects as well as learning something more about his numismatic (and bibliophilic) projects.

From Chapter One: W. L. Ormsby, His Process:

Mention Waterman Lilly Ormsby to a member of the numismatic fraternity and you will hear about the famous engraver�s many banknote designs of the mid-19th century, rarely a word about Colt cylinder scenes. Mention W. L. Ormsby to a collector of 19th century American engravings on steel and you will hear of the famous copy of Trumbull�s Declaration of Independence that hangs today in the White House.

Mention Ormsby to a Colt collector and you will stimulate thoughts of the topics of this tome, cylinder Scenes. Rarely will you hear anything to do with banknotes or framed prints. The disparate collecting communities are not often aware of their mutual interests and how they are pooled in the life and works of this one original, irascible American artist, engraver and inventor.

Hopefully this book, with its crossover niche, will entice new collectors to the obsolete paper money field. Or encourage numismatists to take up arms and collect Colt revolvers!

Concurrent with Colt�s new arms venture in the late 1840s W. L. Ormsby had begun developing his anti-counterfeiting schemes involving unique, engraved images. These ideas would come to closely support the patents that Colt had actively protected since 1835. Ormsby�s ideas were publicly promoted in his 1852 book Bank-Note Engraving. The sole, stated purpose of the large tome was to promote a method to defeat the efforts of mid-19th century America�s numerous banknote counterfeiters. Though much talked about at the time, in the end Ormsby�s proposal had little impact on banknote design.

Most of Ormsby�s banknote output was of the clip-art variety, as seen in the $10 note on the Commercial Bank of Terre Haute, Indiana from 1858. But he did have a better idea. In his book he promoted the idea of the �single vignette bank-note,� which he also called the �unit system.� By this method the entire surface of the paper was covered by one, unbroken design engraved from a unique plate featuring complex scenes with the text interwoven. The images were supposed to be copyrighted and the printing plates jealously guarded so as not to be duplicated by direct mechanical or electrotyping means.

Neither the Colt Scenes nor Bank-Note Engraving was the last hurrah for W. L. Ormsby, Sr. In 1853 he founded the New York Bank Note Company. Its imprimatur and the well-known �W. L. Ormsby, New York.� grace many notes issued by banks from New Hampshire to Utah in the 1850s.

The book illustrates one of Ormsby's bank notes and as a paper money collector these would be interesting items to have, now knowing more about their maker.

The book is primarily a study of its title subject, the Colt cylinder scenes. I enjoyed reading the historical and artistic background of the scenes Ormsby and Colt choose to use. Arthur's book reminded me of another favorite series of small but incredibly useful books in the obsolete paper money field - Roger Durand's "Interesting Notes..." series, where he provides background information on the images used to adorn many obsolete U.S. bank notes.

http://www.ormsby.org/genie/other/engraver.html




The Naval Engagement scene found on Model 1851 and 1861 Colt Navies as well as on the cylinders of Model 1860 Army revolvers.







The cylinders of early Colt revolvers were often roll-engraved with elaborate scenes. The scene depicted on this copper proof plate is called the "Stagecoach Holdup." It shows bandits attempting to rob a stagecoach but they are thwarted by passengers armed with Colt revolvers. The scene appears on several models, including the Model 1848 and 1849 Pocket, the Model 1855 Sidehammer Pocket, the Model 1865 Pocket Navy, and some Model 1862 Police Revolvers. The proof plate was made using the original roll die, the only such die still in existence. It was given to a Colt company executive in the early twentieth century to use as a paperweight.





W.L. Ormsby in 1875----very hard to find photos of him. ( Approx. 41 years old in New York)
The caption with this photo--Ormsby, at 23, was the "New York Harold" reporter who made the first Butterfield Stage run through Pine Springs.



If W.L. Ormsby was around today he might be very surprised at how much his cylinder engraving markings play a very important role in determining the value of Sam Colt’s revolvers.

The clarity of these markings is (often) very important to collectors and can have a big influence on values.



David
 
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