race gun build starting point

[beltfed]

Most semi's are not 1/2 moa to start. So it won't shave it to 1/4 moa. As with anything, there are more details that all add to a finished product. The Las Baer, or the JP rifle would be my choice of rifle from the get-go, but there no way I can justify to myself a $4,000 dollar rifle that I can only take to the range.

So, you are right. It's not only the bolt and barrel combo, but it helps! There are 9 other things a guy can do to get the 1/2 moa semi-auto

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/what-makes-an-ar-accurate-whitley-offers-answers/

A lot of what is in that Accurate shooter article is pure horse sh!t and it would appear that Whitley knows more about fleecing customers for money than he knows about making ARs that shoot.
I would recommend looking at USAMU data on what they have done and tried and continue to do to make accurate ARs.
No B/S and no sales pitches. There isn’t an entity out there with more experience than these guys and they will give you an honest, unbiased feedback.

Floating a good barrel? Yep
Running good ammo? Yep
No binding on the gas tube? Yep
Bedding upper and lower receivers? Nope
Upper and lower fitment? Nope
Truing the receiver? Maybe if you’re buying sh!tty out of spec parts, but generally nope.
Rigid upper? Nope
‘Matched’ bolt? Nope. Get one that headspaces properly.

 

[Horse96]

Since you were so helpful in supplying links and sources for me beltfed, I found an article on high power rifles, and when a shooter should go from service rifle to match rifle. The link is below.

Basically, if a shooter wants to be competitive, the match rifle, with all 10 of the "bullcrap" fleecing items from the accurate shooter, will land a shooter more X's in high power shooting. A match rifle will not make a great shooter an awesome shooter, but will make an average shooter a great shooter.

But, since we are talking 3 gun and race guns, and factors contributing to accuracy, like the OP had started with, then yeah, the 10 item list from accurate shooter would apply, with the proviso that light weight parts should be used wherever they can be, as long as rigidity is not compromised. The OP asked for input on a race Gun, expressed an interest in talking about the tightness of fit between uppers and lowers, and other similar items that would induce performance. So I supplied them.

He also talked about whether it's worth it or not, so those questions have been addressed. Nothing more to argue about.

Have a nice day! And enjoy shooting OP!

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/17/match-versus-service-rifle-which-is-best-for-you/

 

[beltfed]

Well, since you quoted a Zediker article, you may want to check out his book on competitive ARs.
http_://zediker.com/books/ar15/ar15main.html
It is a bit dated now, and it revolves around High power shooting but all of the fundamentals of what makes an AR shoot and what doesn’t is in there.
The good thing about the book and his writing style is that he includes opinions and anacdotes from members of the AMU, gunsmiths and subject mater experts in the field of ARs and competitive shooting. And near as I can tell he tries to sell nothing (well, maybe his journalism).

Also, you may want to actually read the article you quoted. He is speaking of NRA Service Rifle and NRA Highpower.
They shoot iron sights, shooting coats and slings in positional shooting at distance - much like DCRA Fullbore.
The biggest difference between an AR used in NRA SR and Highpower are the sights, triggers, calibers available and furniture. Nothing that actually makes an AR shoot (aside from the trigger & caliber - arguably) is different.

 

[Horse96]

Lol, then why write an article about going to a match rifle to a service rifle? And why would Zediker assert that by going to a match rifle, it will shoot better? In terms of it getting more x's as opposed to 10's?

Hilarious.

Here's a race gun! It's an ar10 but JP's ar15's have the same level of quality. https://youtu.be/OjpsWt7ycW0

 

[beltfed]

Lol, then why write an article about going to a match rifle to a service rifle? And why would Zediker assert that by going to a match rifle, it will shoot better? In terms of it getting more x's as opposed to 10's?

Hilarious.

Here's a race gun! It's an ar10 but JP's ar15's have the same level of quality. https://youtu.be/OjpsWt7ycW0

Are you familiar with this type of shooting? It sure doesn’t sound like you do.

In SR, they are limited in how they modify their competition ARs. It needs to look like their issued M16s (original with iron sights)
Sights need to follow the general design of the A2 sights in the carry handle. Fronts need to still be on the front sight post.
Stocks need to be fixed , non-adjustable A2 butt, and standard clamshell handguards.
Now, they still float the barrels and use FF tubes under the handguards - look at Armalite or DPMS FF handguards for what I’m referring to.
Triggers are limited in weight - I think they are set at 4.5 lbs.
Caliber is restricted to 5.56x45mm.

In Match Rifle, they are not limited to Caliber, stock, sight restrictions like SR.
That is why you see wonky adjustable stocks that fit the shooter, bloop tubes that extend the front sights out beyond the end of the barrel, diopter rear sights with iris inserts, float tubes that do not look like the classic AR handguards, and calibers other than 5.56.

Everything about the differences is about making the trigger puller better.
Virtually nothing physically on the rifles is different where it counts in mechanical accuracy of the gun.
If you put the two guns side by side in vices and shot them they would perform the same.

Re-read the article, and read Zediker’s other work. Read what Scott Medisha himself has said about accurizing ARs.

Edit:
I’m not sure what purpose the video from Snipershide was for, but if it is to lend support that JP rifles is doing anything different than any other precision AR, you are mistaken.

 

[Horse96]

Are you familiar with this type of shooting? It sure doesn’t sound like you do.

In SR, they are limited in how they modify their competition ARs. It needs to look like their issued M16s (original with iron sights)
Sights need to follow the general design of the A2 sights in the carry handle. Fronts need to still be on the front sight post.
Stocks need to be fixed , non-adjustable A2 butt, and standard clamshell handguards.
Now, they still float the barrels and use FF tubes under the handguards - look at Armalite or DPMS FF handguards for what I’m referring to.
Triggers are limited in weight - I think they are set at 4.5 lbs.
Caliber is restricted to 5.56x45mm.

In Match Rifle, they are not limited to Caliber, stock, sight restrictions like SR.
That is why you see wonky adjustable stocks that fit the shooter, bloop tubes that extend the front sights out beyond the end of the barrel, diopter rear sights with iris inserts, float tubes that do not look like the classic AR handguards, and calibers other than 5.56.

Everything about the differences is about making the trigger puller better.
Virtually nothing physically on the rifles is different where it counts in mechanical accuracy of the gun.
If you put the two guns side by side in vices and shot them they would perform the same.

Re-read the article, and read Zediker’s other work. Read what Scott Medisha himself has said about accurizing ARs.

Edit:
I’m not sure what purpose the video from Snipershide was for, but if it is to lend support that JP rifles is doing anything different than any other precision AR, you are mistaken.

There is a difference in the quality of components: according to Zediker (2015) "if each rifle type is AR-15-based and using equivalent quality barrels and attention to construction, then there honestly is no difference in how well each will perforate a target" (para. 8). Meaning, that not all barrels and attention to construction is created equally. But, in regards to the rest, the mods in that discipline of shooting are about improving the "accoutrements" of better fit to the shooter. Which, if a guy wants to build a race gun, the accoutrements conducive to race-gunning will, according to both yours and my arguments, do nothing but help.

And yes, the JP rifle shot very well, so I am not mistaken, as I have said nothing but that there are things that can be done to accurize the AR platform. It may be a case of diminishing marginal returns, meaning you have to spend a whole lot to get a little improvement performance wise, then yeah, it's up the shooter how much they want to spend. But simply stating "no, they don't" is pretty weak.

 

[beltfed]

...It may be a case of diminishing marginal returns, meaning you have to spend a whole lot to get a little improvement performance wise, then yeah, it's up the shooter how much they want to spend. But simply stating "no, they don't" is pretty weak.

You may think it’s weak, but it’s the truth.
Regardless, I’m pretty much done arguing my point with you.
If you want to believe certain things like bedding an AR receiver set or truing or gluing in the barrel aid in gaining accuracy of the rifle, knock yourself out.

 

[Kidd X]

Before anyone starts saying "buy this buy that" the most important question needs to be answered.

What is your skill level when running an AR?

If you're a seasoned shooter who is comfortable with the basics of shooting, then proceed with spending the coin to squeeze every drop of ability out of you and your rifle.

IF you are a newer AR shooter who is just getting into this and are hoping that dropping a bunch of cash into a rifle will make you a good, qualified shooter. Stop right here, go buy a few cases of ammo, learn the gun and better YOUR abilities first.
A Gucci rifle with all the tricked out parts won't help you. If anything it'll hinder you because you spent all your money on parts when you should have bought ammo.

That's exactly it, it can be VERY marginal gains which is why my recommendation to most is not to bother with it until your skill set is at it's peak. It's not like a matching bolt is going to take your rifle from 1/2 MOA to 1/4 moa. Likely it wouldn't even be noticeable.

FoxAlpha hits another home run with his posts above!!!

True enough. Money on ammo goes a lot further. Then again, he did say he wants a race gun.

If you are a freak, like me, and can't stand wobble in your gun, take a look at the maccabee defense rig. Because the upper and lower are slotted, they are the tightest fit that I have seen. And with the right barrel, it's non-restricted. Worth it if you ask me.

Some people say that the upper and lower tightness doesn't mean anything to accruacy. But my bolt actions are tight and have no wobble whatsoever and they shoot rather well. But then again, my stag 3g has wobble and it shoots under moa with handloads.

Good luck!

The fitment makes absolutely ZERO DIFFERENCE as far as performance is concerned. Your optic/sights are bolted to the same plane as the barrel. When you insert a magazine and seat the rifle to your shoulder there is no more wobble. If we are talking about anything other than precision shooting then the shots are far from precise and speed is the order of the day.

It doesn’t matter what skill level you are with an AR. Ammo and training will always trump add-ons and go faster gear as shooting is a perishable skill.
Marksmanship principles apply whether you are laying in the grass on a prepared firing point or running around with your dyck hanging out.

Another solid post!!!!

A lot of what is in that Accurate shooter article is pure horse sh!t and it would appear that Whitley knows more about fleecing customers for money than he knows about making ARs that shoot.
I would recommend looking at USAMU data on what they have done and tried and continue to do to make accurate ARs.
No B/S and no sales pitches. There isn’t an entity out there with more experience than these guys and they will give you an honest, unbiased feedback.

Floating a good barrel? Yep
Running good ammo? Yep
No binding on the gas tube? Yep
Bedding upper and lower receivers? Nope
Upper and lower fitment? Nope
Truing the receiver? Maybe if you’re buying sh!tty out of spec parts, but generally nope.
Rigid upper? Nope
‘Matched’ bolt? Nope. Get one that headspaces properly.

GRAND SLAM!!!!

Since you were so helpful in supplying links and sources for me beltfed, I found an article on high power rifles, and when a shooter should go from service rifle to match rifle. The link is below.

Basically, if a shooter wants to be competitive, the match rifle, with all 10 of the "bullcrap" fleecing items from the accurate shooter, will land a shooter more X's in high power shooting. A match rifle will not make a great shooter an awesome shooter, but will make an average shooter a great shooter.

But, since we are talking 3 gun and race guns, and factors contributing to accuracy, like the OP had started with, then yeah, the 10 item list from accurate shooter would apply, with the proviso that light weight parts should be used wherever they can be, as long as rigidity is not compromised. The OP asked for input on a race Gun, expressed an interest in talking about the tightness of fit between uppers and lowers, and other similar items that would induce performance. So I supplied them.

He also talked about whether it's worth it or not, so those questions have been addressed. Nothing more to argue about.

Have a nice day! And enjoy shooting OP!

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/17/match-versus-service-rifle-which-is-best-for-you/

A tricked out rifle(or pistol) does not take an average shooter to a great shooter. I watched a guy with a bone stock carbine with iron sights whip the sh*t out of free floated AR's with LPVO and all kinds of expensive "race gun" gear. This was at 150 yards off hand at a three gun match. The same guy ran a bone stock 870(gorgeous wood and I hate wood stocks) and a stock Glock 17. I run a boring milspec carbine with an A2 and magpul plastic handguards and seem to place very well as does a buddy of mine who frequently places. I watched a buddy school an IPSC guy running an STI grandmaster with his stock Glock.. You don't need to trick out your gear to be a better shooter. You need to hone your skills to be a better shooter. There's a reason they're called FUNDAMENTALS..

 

[Horse96]

I hear ya. I don't run a race gun, can't afford it. I do run an accurate free floated light triggered ar. My barrel is longish, 18inch, but it's match grade. Long targets are my bi*€hes.. short ones are still good. I shoot tactical optics. Would I want some guy with open gear in my division? No. He'd have an advantage.

Jerry Miculek spanks race guns with a revolver, taran butler is faster than any of us shooting from the hip with a g34. Skill, given good enough equipment trumps all.

And I disagree, fitment does play a part in accuracy. Maybe its a 1/8 MOA at 100 yards. But if a guy wants to build a solid high quality ar from the get-go, and not go through upgrading or dealing with busted half-baked parts and have to upgrade, or maybe just likes to own something shiny, who cares? The op asked a question, I answered. Someone had a different opinion, no big deal. There is NO RIGHT ANSWER.

Anyway, I hope the op got some ideas from this discussion and is on his way to get the gun he wants. I hope I was able to help, but if not, no worries! Take care! Buy lots of ammo, and let 'er buck!

 

[beltfed]

And I disagree, fitment does play a part in accuracy. Maybe its a 1/8 MOA at 100 yards... There is NO RIGHT ANSWER.

Ok, I’m going to flog this horse one more time, and then I’m done:
The USAMU shoots ARs in their competitions, and have done so for something like 30+ years.
They take their competition very seriously as they compete against the other branches (Marines, Navy, Air Force), and the work they do benefits troops on the battlefield.
They have tried everything under the sun with respect to testing, and even double back on some stuff more than once just to be sure.
The proliferation of competition gear, bullets and the RnD for such items is often attributed to their direct involvement.
In addition to competitions, they are essentially a proving ground for small arms.
They produce and consume pallets full of ammo every year.
The other services also conduct their own evaluations and testing.

There is evidence out there if you care to look (you can start by reading Zediker’s book that I posted above), that no form of bedding, truing or gluing of an ARs barrel or receiver has any effect on the accuracy of the rifle.
They have gone so far as to tig/mig receivers and barrel extensions and fitting of bolts. All of which, according to them doesn’t amount to diddly squat.

But if a guy wants to build a solid high quality ar from the get-go...

I get that some like to splurge on Gucci kit - I do that too from time to time.
But - where the rubber meets the road with an AR is a floated quality barrel & quality ammo. The rest is for the shooter.