Rachet indents on brass. Options?

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I've got a brass revolver, of unknown alloy, 1873-1876, that has ratchet indents as a result of overpressure.
I'm willing to send it away the receiver, if someone has the desire and means to fix it.

I've tried two types epoxy, but it doesn't help for more than a round or two.

I would like to deal with this issue, as it is resulting in a larger than acceptable cylinder gap.

Suggestions?
 
oldiron said:
Sounds like the frame is stretching. I fixed one by turning it into a paper-weight. Seemed to stop the damage.
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The frame on this gun hes talking about has stress cracks on the frontal corners of the bottom and top strap. This gun should not be fired anymore.

Your solution is a good one.
 
I very much doubt you'll find a smithy who can or will risk accepting the liability of doing anything with brass framed revolver. If you keep firing it, you're risking severe injury to yourself and anybody near you.
Epoxy will do nothing. It does not for contain pressure.
 
This is the same one as before with cracked frame right? I'm sorry to say, but it's a wall hanger. Brass gets brittle, as has happened on yours. Not much short of melting it and recasting is going to get that stress out and leave you with a safe gun. I dare say there might be options, but they'd be in the 1-2k range and might not work.
 
H Wally said:
This is the same one as before with cracked frame right? I'm sorry to say, but it's a wall hanger. Brass gets brittle, as has happened on yours. Not much short of melting it and recasting is going to get that stress out and leave you with a safe gun. I dare say there might be options, but they'd be in the 1-2k range and might not work.
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Options like remachining a whole new frame using the old one as a template. Other than that, the gun is a wall hanger.
 
Tyockell18 said:
Options like remachining a whole new frame using the old one as a template. Other than that, the gun is a wall hanger.
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That'd end up with a prohib based on bbl length iirc. Was thinking tig welding brass but that'd almost make more mess than would be manageable. It'd still need machining and some sort of testing for hidden cracks and correct hardness after.... possible but pretty much not viable unless it was Patton's own revolver that he took off Hitler's dead body :p .
 
H Wally said:
That'd end up with a prohib based on bbl length iirc. Was thinking tig welding brass but that'd almost make more mess than would be manageable. It'd still need machining and some sort of testing for hidden cracks and correct hardness after.... possible but pretty much not viable unless it was Patton's own revolver that he took off Hitler's dead body :p .
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Yes you are correct sorry, Sometimes I forgot about how retarded our firearms laws are.
 
.... one thing is, the brass usually was work hardened (hammered) after casting, so welding is surely not a solution.
 
I was thinking some sort of small flame spot weld or TIG.... I don't have much knowledge in the area of welding. I considered flux and solder, but I don't think it would last past the first shot, and there's still heat involved.

Yes, I realize that normally one cannot easily weld this type of brass without degrading it, as even without the case hardening, the components of brass melt / evaporate at different temperatures, and in the case with the receiver crack, it would likely make the matter worse. I am not asking asking for someone to weld the offending crack on the front lower of the receiver for that reason.

However, on the rear end of the receiver, where the indents are, I was thinking some sort of quick weld might be possible, as that area of the frame receives less stress that would cause stretching.

Obviously I have already ruled out casting or milling a new receiver, as that could lead to prison rape. I love how ignorant of the law some residents of CGN are. I've also considered having the area of the receiver partially milled out and pinning in a piece of milled steel = but if it wasn't just perfect, it could put all of the pressure on the upper receiver and introduce a new point of failure.

As for whether the cylinder gap is caused by upper receiver stretching vs ratchet marks, I will just say that when the cylinder cycles (is not in the position where it is shot from), the cylinder gap is within a range acceptable by modern revolver standards. When it is in the firing position, the gap is expanded.

Fixing this issue has nothing to do with safety - it is about velocity, user comfort (less sideways flame), and function (make the revolving smoother).

I've now got a couple hundred.356" soft lead to shoot from it, after trying .355" soft lead and finding it a bit small. Yes, it could blow up in my hand. No, that is not the topic of this thread and if it continues to be the topic, this thread will undoubtedly be locked like the last one.
 
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Kid; there is but one way to repair the cracking of your revolver and it will not address the stretch compounding problem this revolver has...it is therefore hazardous to continue to shoot this firearm, it is as they say "tired iron" {brass in your case}.

In order to fuse the cracks the frame must be brazed. Brass will repair brass, but only if done correctly and there are very few welders who can properly braze anymore. With the advent of electric welding, and the fact that from a material stance, brass became far too expensive to fabricate from, the art of brazing became a redundant skill.

The entire piece to be repaired is warmed in an oven to a specified temp, the "weld" is then applied with an Oxy/Acetylene flame and brass rod. The procedure is similar to "Tig" welding only without electricity. Once the brass piece has been fused correctly with the weld it is either wrapped in a asbestos blanket or back to the oven which is then slowly and incrementally cooled back to ambient temperature.

Done correctly, the piece will not break at that point again. Structurally it is improved and molecularly bonded via the rod used.

I have repaired large drive shives (cast iron) in this manner many moons ago due to the fact that the hub was cracked/broken and new replacement parts were an impossibility.

So to answer your question of "can it be fixed?" Yes it can be fixed, however the question that MUST be answered is SHOULD it be fixed...you've heard that answer from many knowledgeable antique collectors, shooters and black powder enthusiasts. Sorry to inform, but your gun is done and shouldn't be used any longer for the safety of yourself and bystanders.
 
Kid said:
...........
I love how ignorant of the law some residents of CGN are. .....
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good way of making friends here.....NOT!....not everybody is a law expert, that's why we seek legal advice on everything in life, tax, loans, guns....
Kid said:
...........Yes, it could blow up in my hand. No, that is not the topic of this thread and if it continues to be the topic, this thread will undoubtedly be locked like the last one.
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risk hurting yourself anyway you please just make sure no one around you when you do it. oftentimes "aging" antiques are best for display only, there are plenty of other guns to shoot.
 
There is no such thing as surface hardening with brass. The whole thing have to be forged to harden it.

The brass and bronze, if brazed, will be spot annealed, the only way to get the hole piece back to it's original strength will be to braze it, anneal it and re-hammer forge it. Not an easy way out. If just brazed, the heaten spot will be much softer than the rest. If the whole frame is warmed, it may well end up being annealed all over.
 
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hang it on the wall or sell it as a wall hanger(the price will be very cheap) and buy a modern gun if you want to shoot on a regular basis this thing is done but you are not listening to us. with the last comment you made it tells me you do not have what it takes to even think of fixing something like this sure it could be tig welded/brazed(no flame involved just an electric arc strong enough to kill you several times over) but hardening brass is not something done easily and like others have said you need to work harden it that's the only way
 
Kid said:
I was thinking some sort of small flame spot weld or TIG.... I don't have much knowledge in the area of welding. I considered flux and solder, but I don't think it would last past the first shot, and there's still heat involved.

Yes, I realize that normally one cannot easily weld this type of brass without degrading it, as even without the case hardening, the components of brass melt / evaporate at different temperatures, and in the case with the receiver crack, it would likely make the matter worse. I am not asking asking for someone to weld the offending crack on the front lower of the receiver for that reason.

However, on the rear end of the receiver, where the indents are, I was thinking some sort of quick weld might be possible, as that area of the frame receives less stress that would cause stretching.

Obviously I have already ruled out casting or milling a new receiver, as that could lead to prison rape. I love how ignorant of the law some residents of CGN are. I've also considered having the area of the receiver partially milled out and pinning in a piece of milled steel = but if it wasn't just perfect, it could put all of the pressure on the upper receiver and introduce a new point of failure.

As for whether the cylinder gap is caused by upper receiver stretching vs ratchet marks, I will just say that when the cylinder cycles (is not in the position where it is shot from), the cylinder gap is within a range acceptable by modern revolver standards. When it is in the firing position, the gap is expanded.

Fixing this issue has nothing to do with safety - it is about velocity, user comfort (less sideways flame), and function (make the revolving smoother).

I've now got a couple hundred.356" soft lead to shoot from it, after trying .355" soft lead and finding it a bit small. Yes, it could blow up in my hand. No, that is not the topic of this thread and if it continues to be the topic, this thread will undoubtedly be locked like the last one.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I like to surf CGN intoxicated sometimes, which still is not as irresponsible as firing a 140 year old gun that has been abused and begging to let go at any minute. Do us all a favor, let it go so you don't have to let your dependent hand go in the near future.

What you keep pushing for is foolish at the very least and highly dangerous, I'm losing my patience with this insanity.

From the information you have supplied to the community, we all feel that you are in danger to yourself or others if you continue to fire this revolver, please stop ignoring us.
 
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Baribal said:
There is no such thing as surface hardening with brass. The whole thing have to be forged to harden it.

The brass and bronze, if brazed, will be spot annealed, the only way to get the hole piece back to it's original strength will be to braze it, anneal it and re-hammer forge it. Not an easy way out. If just brazed, the heaten spot will be much softer than the rest. If the whole frame is warmed, it may well end up being annealed all over.
Click to expand...

My reading shows me that hammer forging is more of an advanced industrial practice that would require a mold, so that appears out of the question.

If it was just brazed and annealed, would that leave it too soft?

Would it be "stupid" to ask whether it could be cold forged (aka literally hammered all over with a steel hammer) on an anvil afterwards?
I assume that simply hammering would not be powerful enough / consistent enough, but in addition I read about forging modifying the "grain" of the metal - I assume to achieve this, it would require more radical "shaping" of the metal than would be allowable on a revolver.

So, considering brazing and annealing "the easy part", would it even be possible (without a proper mold) to hammer forge it afterwards?
How would it have been done 140 years ago on a low-volume production run like this one?

(I'm going to note that we are again off the topic of the ratchet indents and on the topic of receiver crack.)
 
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