RAMP - What does everyone think?
- Thread starter Pudelpointer
- Start date
It's a very rough guess at best. I've heard numbers as high as 400 million to take RAMP province wide so with 100,000+ hunters in the province, that would add up to $300-$400 per hunter. I'm sure the number could be slightly lower or considerably higher....it's a guestimation at best. I'm not certain even the government has calculated the costs of a province-wide RAMP. If they have, it sure would be nice to know.
Sheep by all means find out how RAMP will be funded, it is an important part of the issue but by no means the only important part of the issue. As of right now RAMP is being funded with SRD money, the same money that should be going to important things like wildlife management, support for our wildlife biologists, enforecement and enforecement.
The dialogue that came out of Morton over the time that he was talking about this would suggest that there will be a couple of means to fund this project.
First; user fees although this was I beleive not his first choice it may be a huge component of the funding when this starts to get expensive.
Two; downloading to other ministeries. As was brought up in the spring of 08 there have been discussions to change a lot of the funding sources that would include Agriculture. This is the push towards this becoming a rural value added program with wildlife been sold. It also has a lot of roots in the Land Use Framework as one of the money streams as Ecological Goods and Services has been ear marked as a means to generate income within the Ag component.
Third; piggybacking on a second self funded program like HFH.
I'm sure there could be other means but these were some of the ones that Morton himself has elluded to in face to face meetings and I would suggest are a good starting point.
When you find out the answer by all means let us know and we'd be more than happy to help you out in any way.
The dialogue that came out of Morton over the time that he was talking about this would suggest that there will be a couple of means to fund this project.
First; user fees although this was I beleive not his first choice it may be a huge component of the funding when this starts to get expensive.
Two; downloading to other ministeries. As was brought up in the spring of 08 there have been discussions to change a lot of the funding sources that would include Agriculture. This is the push towards this becoming a rural value added program with wildlife been sold. It also has a lot of roots in the Land Use Framework as one of the money streams as Ecological Goods and Services has been ear marked as a means to generate income within the Ag component.
Third; piggybacking on a second self funded program like HFH.
I'm sure there could be other means but these were some of the ones that Morton himself has elluded to in face to face meetings and I would suggest are a good starting point.
When you find out the answer by all means let us know and we'd be more than happy to help you out in any way.
I guess it would be helpful if many people asked this question....just as some of the other concerns you have pointed out. Many voices are more likely to get an answer than just one. So far I haven't received one but perhaps a concerted effort would have better results.
That's the way I'd like you to help.
I guess it would be helpful if many people asked this question....just as some of the other concerns you have pointed out. Many voices are more likely to get an answer than just one. So far I haven't received one but perhaps a concerted effort would have better results.
I agree.
Fighting open Spaces was a concerted effort (groups like ARHJ and other concerned Albertans) and at least it got HFH shelved. And thanks to all those who participated. Now hopefully RAMP is next.
I do wish to hear more from those that support this program.
I'm concerned for two reasons one I might be so blinded by this thing that I'm missing its potential and two I'm concerned that perhaps those that support it have bought into something that may end in a manner that they didn't see coming.
I've been accused of trying to protect my "honey holes" but I have to say that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't freely give up my hunting spots but at the same time I have nothing exclusive and have on many occasions found people that have beaten me to my spots and I have on many occassions taken other people to my spots.
I'm also concerned that we will be giving up a way of hunting that is becoming extremely rare. Canada has a management method that is basically only found here. The United States is all about paid hunting, Europe is next to impossible to even pay to hunt because it is exclusive in many parts to those that own it. If we start cracking open the door we will lose this way for ever and I beleive that the benefit of "Easy Access" or "Conveinant Access" is not worth the cost.
I'm concerned for two reasons one I might be so blinded by this thing that I'm missing its potential and two I'm concerned that perhaps those that support it have bought into something that may end in a manner that they didn't see coming.
I've been accused of trying to protect my "honey holes" but I have to say that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't freely give up my hunting spots but at the same time I have nothing exclusive and have on many occasions found people that have beaten me to my spots and I have on many occassions taken other people to my spots.
I'm also concerned that we will be giving up a way of hunting that is becoming extremely rare. Canada has a management method that is basically only found here. The United States is all about paid hunting, Europe is next to impossible to even pay to hunt because it is exclusive in many parts to those that own it. If we start cracking open the door we will lose this way for ever and I beleive that the benefit of "Easy Access" or "Conveinant Access" is not worth the cost.
I guess it would be helpful if many people asked this question....just as some of the other concerns you have pointed out. Many voices are more likely to get an answer than just one. So far I haven't received one but perhaps a concerted effort would have better results.
It would appear that the overwhelming majority of people I know who oppose RAMP are focusing on ways to attack the program. Indeed the majority of people I know who are opposed, have been opposed for a number of years now and so we have had more time to consider our opposition. For my part I considered and dismissed the tact you suggest sometime ago. I've posted many of the flaws I saw with the idea already so no need to repeat myself. Perhaps you will have better luck elsewhere convincing people to follow your idea or you may find that you have become a voice in the wilderness.
"O" i've tried before and I'll try again, it isn't a #### measuring contest if you are against this then that's great every bit of pressure counts, this is not a simple issue it is somewhat complex (kind of redundant considering it is a political problem). So please lets just fight this thing, I've wasted more time dealing with this against apparently like minded individuals, time that would have been better spent on the phone with MLA's, involved organizations and committee chairmen.
The same ones I've been saying for the last couple of years? If you ain't up to speed by now, I doubt another post will help.
Many years ago I went on a canoe trip. The group had been doing the same trip every summer for 5 years. On this trip however there was a new guy. Typically we would get the boats on the lake and hammer across, fighting a strong cross wind the whole time, hit the other side and pick a camp site. The new guy(in my boat) had other ideas. He decided where he wanted to camp before we got across the lake. And he would drive his paddle into the water and stop the boat everytime we deviated from his course. Everytime we stopped the crosswind blew us further down the lake and by the time we got across, the other members of our group had already landed, chosen a site and pitched their tents.
Pudelpointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Lethbridge, Alberta
Thank you for posting that Tempest. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of baggage between a number of members, but when I look at the overall thread(s) one thing sticks out: the guys that are taking shots at each other are saying the same thing - RAMP needs to go.
I know there are some personality conflicts, and I hope those posters can let go of the past (other threads that have gone sideways here and elsewhere), see that AT THIS MOMENT there is an agreement of opinions, and move forward.
A big thank you to those that have ignored subtle, and not so subtle, snide remarks and kept the conversation civil and productive.
Does anyone know how to get a petition going? I know some will say that there is no point until RAMP comes up for evaluation (2011/2012), but I believe we need to present something to opposition politicians to get them to hear us. I think a petition with a few thousand (50 too much to hope for?) might get the attention of the WRA, or maybe even the present gov. (not holding breath).
I know for a fact that many of the hunters accessing RAMP properties are against the program, but they have always hunted there and do not have alternatives, so it is either RAMP or no hunting for some. Given the chance I know they would sign a petition against it.
What do you think? Anyone with experienced in this civil action thing? Any tree-hugger hunters or NDP converts?
Actually Pudel, a petition may be one of the freshest ideas to come out of this conversation. I think it's critical that it not be tied to any group such as AFGA as Morton has made it abudantly clear that AFGA members are not your average hunters nor the ones that will truly benefit from RAMP. How do you petition average hunters...well that is a million dollar question but I do know from experience that a petition with actual signatures versus an internet petition does carry more weight. Possibly one of the province-wide retailers would allow it to be set out on their gun counters? Possibly you could use your connection at Wholesale?
Pudelpointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Lethbridge, Alberta
With the new owners I am not sure how that would go, but hell I am willing to ask! When it was "Open Spaces" the Lethbridge WSS had a petition going (IIRC it was from ARHJ), but then WSS was privately owned and each store manager had the ability to allow such things, so who knows now.
I am going to go there after lunch and see what I can find out.
So here is a question, what are the legal ramifications? Does the petition have to be tied to an organization? Individual?
I have worked for gov. before, and hoped to possibly again, but I would be willing to have my name associated with it, if that is what it takes.
Suggestions?
My personal view is that it not be tied to any group as with that comes baggage and perception. This needs to come from "average" hunters. The ones Morton says he's doing this for. You seem pretty "average" to me....lol
Not sure there are any legal ramifications but you make a point about your future working for the government. It's a small world. It's a brave step to actually set yourself out there like that and step beyond an internet persona. That could follow you for a long time.
Whatever you decide, my experience says ask one simple question that requires simple support. Put any bias in it and it loses its value. Put too many points in it and you'll lose signatures. You don't want a question that allows some agreement and some disagreement. And don't use words or wording that are open to debate. Keep it simple.
Not sure there are any legal ramifications but you make a point about your future working for the government. It's a small world. It's a brave step to actually set yourself out there like that and step beyond an internet persona. That could follow you for a long time.
Whatever you decide, my experience says ask one simple question that requires simple support. Put any bias in it and it loses its value. Put too many points in it and you'll lose signatures. You don't want a question that allows some agreement and some disagreement. And don't use words or wording that are open to debate. Keep it simple.
Pudel makes a point that everyone needs to forget their discrepancies and move along. It appears it is just too tempting for some to throw that last stone.
I am not going to bite Sheep - I will just caution the folks reading this to believe what they see, and trust in those who have shown a track record in opposing this from the beginning. There is a reason that landowners are not selling tags in 108 and 300 this fall.
I am not sure I buy the logic of groups or organizations having "baggage and perception". How many times does policy really get changed without the support of larger groups and their memberships? This thing will be defeated by lobbying the MLA's and Premier - Morton won't listen so any correspondence to him is largely a clerical requirement. What might change this is pressure from MLA's suggesting they do not wish to lose large portions of their support due to one Ministers pet project.
A petition may be a fresh idea, but people a known to sign petitions without knowing what they are about - so the government doesn't give them a lot of weight. I don't think it would hurt, and likely would at least help in making other hunters aware of what is going on and possibly make them want to get involved.
Hand written letters to your MLA, Morton and Stelmach will likely carry more weight. Better yet send one to every MLA in the province - they will give you a PFO letter, but they will at least become aware of the pilot for when it comes up for discussion.
I agree to keep it simple, both a petition and letters.
A suggestion for letters might be:
1. I have assembled extensive information on the RAMP pilot to make an informed decision on it's viability
2. I do not support the pilot
3. It will determine the way I vote in the next election
Good on you Pudel for wanting to do something.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about Norskie. I was offering Pudel some advice from some advocacy training I took part in.......nothing more.
There's no question that the AFGA's opposition was the demise of HFH but Morton has made it clear he's not listening about RAMP because they aren't average hunters. I wholeheartedly encourage everyone to join the AFGA and join their opposition but what Pudel is suggesting might be viewed more as the 'average" hunter speaking. Just my thoughts but feel free to assume anything else.
No worries it doesn't really matter - the focus needs to remain on RAMP.
Would you care to elaborate on the "advocacy training" and specifically how it would apply in the fight against RAMP and paid hunting. Just looking for helpful information here....
My whole point is there is likely little sense in trying to convince a dictator (actually I think Ted gives dictator's a bad name
) that the policy he adopted in the face of stiff and pretty much unilateral opposition is going to do any good at all. Try any method/medium you like - he is not going to listen. The only voice he will here are his peers when they feel enough heat to back out of supporting this thing....And they look at numbers of voters, and organizations like AFGA have these.
