Advocacy groups in the U.S. routinely offer it, I took part in some seminars at a trade show. I offered up what I thought were some helpful suggestions in my last post to Pudel. I'm sure if reread it you'll see what they were.
TJ
RAMP - What does everyone think?
- Thread starter Pudelpointer
- Start date
Advocacy groups in the U.S. routinely offer it, I took part in some seminars at a trade show. I offered up what I thought were some helpful suggestions in my last post to Pudel. I'm sure if reread it you'll see what they were.
TJ
Ike, is there really a point to your constant quoting out of context and assumptions other than derailing this discussion for your personal enjoyment. If you read what I actually said, you'll see I encouraged everyone to to join the AFGA fight but that what Pudel was suggesting was another tact that gets around Mortons comments about the AFGA. AFGA was intrigual in the derailment of HFH and still the leader in the fight but some other tacts like Pudel is suggesting have merit........can we get past your personal issues now.
Pudelpointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Lethbridge, Alberta
I understand the concern about "baggage" as a lot of it seems to be hanging on. I am sure that from the meetings held with Morton and ARHJ, he would rather not go through that again, from what I have heard (not criticizing ARHJ, I am glad they stepped up when they did, I just do not think Ted will entertain any further discussion with them, or the AFGA for that matter).
I do not think having the support of the AFGA, regional clubs, and groups like ARHJ is a bad thing, I think what SH is suggesting is that they not be viewed as the "driving force" behind a petition.
I think that asking hunters to NOT use these RAMP properties is appropriate, but not necessarily useful or constructive. I personally will not hunt these properties again, even though I have in the past, and hope that every other Albertan hunter avoids them as well. That may provide the loudest voice about the hunting public's opposition to this scheme.
I do not think having the support of the AFGA, regional clubs, and groups like ARHJ is a bad thing, I think what SH is suggesting is that they not be viewed as the "driving force" behind a petition.
I think that asking hunters to NOT use these RAMP properties is appropriate, but not necessarily useful or constructive. I personally will not hunt these properties again, even though I have in the past, and hope that every other Albertan hunter avoids them as well. That may provide the loudest voice about the hunting public's opposition to this scheme.
Pudelpointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Lethbridge, Alberta
Okay, I am finished lunch now.
Hungarian Partridge Loco Moco. Yummy.
Off to WSS I go.
Hungarian Partridge Loco Moco. Yummy.
Off to WSS I go.
Truthfully Pudle, ARHJ never crossed my mind.....I was speaking solely about AFGA and only because of Morton's dismissive comments about the 2009 denouncement of RAMP by them.
I was told that ARHJ never met with Morton nor did they ever send a letter.
I was told that ARHJ never met with Morton nor did they ever send a letter.
Why do you think theMinister would be opposed to meeting with groups for input Pudel? Have you spoke with Morton? Where have you received that information?
I won't discount the baggage issue - I think many of the folks that opposed this in the beginning were operating under an extremely tight time line - like a few months to get information out, organize a backlash and fight the constant droning of folks who kept saying "we need all the facts" or "give it a chance, it's just a pilot". This all had to happen right before the election, and when this was going to be reviewed by CPC.
I am not even sure that Ted ever met with the ARHJ as you suggest. I do not ever remember ARHJ sitting in a meeting as a stakeholder. I know when I met with him there was no one carrying that banner. From my understanding the group was/is basically a information portal where documents and other info is available to all hunters to help in the fight against paid hunting.
I have met with Ted Morton on a few occasions, and I can tell you just as sure as I sit and type this that Ted would not likely entertain the ideas of any group - as you mention, but he will also not likely entertain the ideas from a single individual or a group of individuals either. Just think about this - 19,000 members of the AFGA voted to not support this, and shortly thereafter the Alberta Municipalities voted against supporting this too - the motion coming from the delegate from WMU 108. He's not just not listening to us - he is not listening at all....
And I'm totally jealous - your dinner looked a lot better than my tuna sandwich...
A co-worker mentioned his excitment about the program and that he was going to go try it out. The look of shock on his face when I told him it was a bad idea was something else. Most of the folks are just excited to have a place to go hunt that isn't solid bush high country. It is really hard to get guys to look deeper when all they want is to escape for a days hunting. Few are thinking about what hunting will be like for their kids and grand kids.
I haven't checked but I hope there is something in the regs for everyone to read about this program. Not that many read their regs tho......
While I would love to believe that it was the unanimous decision by the Alberta Fish & Game Association in opposing the Open Spaces Alberta Proposal that led to the shelving of HFH, it was not. It was over a full month later when the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties (AAMDC) met and voted against supporting the OSA proposal that Ted Morton “threw up his hands” and withdrew HFH. If my memory serves me correct, that was on March 19th, 2008.
Minister Morton had the opportunity to withdraw OSA after the AFGA convention in February and he did not.
Prior to the AAMDC meeting, I had very lengthy conversations with Municipal Affairs, Jim Allen of SRD and the M.D. Tax Assesor that would likely have some input in the tax assessment side of the pilot. I also received subsequent correspondence that suggested SRD had muddled this up big time as they had failed to recognize the potential challenges in revenue from both the personal and property tax side of the equation and failed to consult the involved parties.
It was also widely believed at the time of the AFGA convention or just after, that the Deseret Ranch had pulled their support or participation for the project and this had a very large affect on the HFH proposal. We found out shortly after that the Deseret Ranch had indeed withdrawn their particpation in the proposal.
I bring these items up because I believe they are important clues in the withdrawal of HFH. There were several straws that finally broke the camel’s back. I think that provides a bit of a battle plan to the opposition of RAMP.
Minister Morton had the opportunity to withdraw OSA after the AFGA convention in February and he did not.
Prior to the AAMDC meeting, I had very lengthy conversations with Municipal Affairs, Jim Allen of SRD and the M.D. Tax Assesor that would likely have some input in the tax assessment side of the pilot. I also received subsequent correspondence that suggested SRD had muddled this up big time as they had failed to recognize the potential challenges in revenue from both the personal and property tax side of the equation and failed to consult the involved parties.
It was also widely believed at the time of the AFGA convention or just after, that the Deseret Ranch had pulled their support or participation for the project and this had a very large affect on the HFH proposal. We found out shortly after that the Deseret Ranch had indeed withdrawn their particpation in the proposal.
I bring these items up because I believe they are important clues in the withdrawal of HFH. There were several straws that finally broke the camel’s back. I think that provides a bit of a battle plan to the opposition of RAMP.
You should not take my response to your posts personally. Not everyone possess the skill set to effectively communicate their ideas with the written language. Given the many posts where you feel you are being taken out of context or misunderstood, you may be one of these people. I am certainly not trying to discourage you from contributing. Indeed I expect you may become more effective with practice.
A petition is about numbers plain and simple. Attempting to acheive numbers while respecting what Ted Morton says about a certain group of hunters is counterproductive and divisive.
If you fear Ted is going to discredit or disregard a petition becuase a % of the names are AFGA members or the AFGA was invovled in process, then why bother with the petition? Becuase regardless of who starts it, AFGA members are going to sign and Ted will be able to try and discredit or distregard it.
So instead of worrying what Ted might say, why not just get a petition out and get as many names on it as possible?
You are correct. Ted was running with OS/RAMP and had the AAMDC listed as being supportive, while in fact at the time of the meeting the vast majority of the members had not heard of it. Mortons attempted to bully the AAMDC into supporting his program and failed.
Couple points:
Getting access - I don't have MD maps for everywhere I hunt as I try to hunt alot of different areas. This is usually not a problem but it is nice to have a clear and explict map, with contact information, so there is no ambiguity. We are usually out a few weeks in advance to do scouting and get permissions and so on but it can be damn near impossible to catch some farmers during harvest or during the vacations that inevitably follow the harvest. The RAMP maps make it clear that hunting is allowed on specific land and that contact with landowners can be made by the specified method.
Filling out RAMP cards - pain in the ass when some jackass takes all the pens out the ramp box and no one has a pen amongst us (happened at two ramp boxes, though I didnt have my truck so I didnt have my supply of a gagillion pens handy) or if the pens are just plain frozen. Wait till you get to RAMP boxes and there aren't any of the cards to fill out. What do you do then if you can't get ahold of the landowner ? Sure, you may have spoken to the landowner previously and have his/her permission but I would rather have the card in hand rather than not when confronted by FW officers or neighbors or anyone else asking. I am not sure if one is able to get a book of these cards to pre-fill out at home (without taking a book from a RAMP box)? I just think this procedure can be streamlined to prevent unnecessary problems. If you could sign in once for the entire season, it is less of an issue as you could sign in on any early season scouting trip. If you have to do it every day you head out, you have to hope that things go your way and Murphy hasn't thrown any wrenches into your plans.
You are quite likely right. Writing has never been one of my strong points so if you could bear that in mind when responding to my posts, it would be greatly appreciated. It will likely prevent a lot of the misunderstandings we seem to have. Rather than assuming based on my poor writing skills....just ask for clarification...it'll give me more practice in a constructive manner.
I think we should get as many names on it as we can......my poor writing skills may have lead you to believe otherwise but I never indicated that ayone should be discouraged from signing it. I just feel it's best if the petition suggested by Pudel is not spearheaded by a group that Morton has already dismissed as not having valuable input. I support anything the AFGA is doing to oppose RAMP but as Pudel came with an independant thought, it seemed good to follow in that vein and add to the efforts from a different direction that Morton has indicated was important. My comments were based solely on what Ted is on the record as already saying....not speculation of what he might say. I hope that's clear enough.
This is the problem Noel - some guys need to be spoon fed & won't make the connections unless they fall in their lap. I still believe "educating" new hunters on how to find these areas as a good start.
With the tools available now - Google Earth, MD maps, cell phones etc. I just can't see how a little desire, elbow grease (or BS'ing skills) can't get you on to good dirt almost anywhere.
There are places like public land, habitat projects through ACA, PF, DU etc that are out there for guys that want the quick day hunt - I know I have used some too.
I fear your comment about folks only thinking about their hunts and not hunting's future is too true.
That would be fine if Ted was on record stating that he was willing to listen to the average hunter, but he has rather said he doesn't believe that AFGA represents the average hunter.
He has not publicly stated he is willing to listen to anyone.
I never said he did...sheesh!
I said he indicated that the average hunter was important. My writing can't be that bad. I'm suspecting a comprehension problem here. Following in the vein that he feels the average hunter is important....possibly he will listen....possibly he won't but I fail to see why you are so desperately trying to disuade Pudel from following through with yet another tact in the opposition to RAMP. It may not work but heck, it's worth a try. I'm just trying to offer a few constructive suggestions to help him out as he asked......truthfully, none of what I said involved you.
And if you read back to Pudel's original post about a petition, his target audience for the final petition was much greater than Ted. Possibly some of the people he intends to pass it along to might see the value...even though you don't.
Where did I suggest Pudel not start a petition?.....Sheesh
I have already thanked him for wanting to do something (the petition). I can go farther in stating that I think it is a great idea pudel, and would gladly sign it as well.
Go back and read my post. I think when yo do you may see that the leap you just took is part of "our" comprehension problems....
Ted is dismissive of the AFGA becuase they oppose him. It stands to reason he would dismiss a petition if he didn't like what it said. Why are we worried about what Ted will say at this point? Why would we tailor how we fight RAMP around Ted's agenda?
Ted is playing the old "silent Majority" card on this one.
Sheephunter, I hope what I am about to write is taken constructively to advance the discussion.
There is always going to be a fringe group that will suggest plots, schemes and misrepresentation if ANY single person or group of individuals outside of a recognized organization attempts to dissolve RAMP looking for support from fellow hunters and outdoorspersons. This has already been proven to be true with this issue.
It apparently mattered little that one particular group, against OSA, publically and repeatedly were compelled to state that they represented nobody but themselves and were only supplying information to inform other outdoorspeople in the hope that letters would be written and appropriate action taken.
Honestly, why in the world would any individual or group want to put themselves through that wringer again?
I would far rather see the AFGA spearhead such a petition (if that is deemed a good use of resources) and allow a method for identifying a petitioner as an AFGA member or not.
