RAMP - What does everyone think?

I for one would not assume that all PC's are going to buy everything Ted says. There is a reason Stelmuck not Ted is currently the premier and now some of his support has jumped ship to the WRA.

It has been my experience that (as Guido pointed out) many other MLA's have not even heard of RAMP so a petition(regardless of the wording)will serve to get more information into more hands. Most hunters I know are against paid hunting. Attaching "Paid Hunting" to a RAMP petition makes it easier for them to arrive at a decision. The KISS rule applies.
 
You are correct that many MLAs are indeed unaware of RAMP and I guess that speaks to the apathy of most hunters. Mine is well aware of what it is as I'm sure yours is. I'm not sure a petition will raise any MLA awareness though but I guess it couldn't hurt.
 
As a courtesy to you pudel

I've done what any concerned hunter would do:

Many letters to Ted and Ed.
Harassing my friends and aquaintances in the media .
Providing information to my connections in the AAMDC.
Providing information to my connections in the ACA
Funneling all the hunters I know(personally) to the ARHJ website and providing them with other OC/RAMP related links.
I've also had the opportunity to discuss this with a few MLA's.

I'm no heavyweight, just an average Alberta Hunter. The very same demographic Ted claims he is trying to help.


Now if Omega is too busy to give you the same courtesy, I would be happy to forward his many PM's to me, that will help you form a better opinion on what he's done and what's working for him.
OK, thank you for taking the time to post that. I think or hope everyone has done that as a minimum, I mistakenly thought there was more being done or planned. keep up the good work.
 
Given this was Ted's original goal, why would we assume different? Anyone who has followed his politcal career knows TED does not change his mind. Remember bill 208? Ted does not take no(even a majority no) for an answer. If Ted wanted a HFH program, Ted wants a HFH program.
OK now I understand your stance on the money. Thank you.
I don't agree with it as HFH could never begin to pay for RAMP but I understand your fear.
 
OK, thank you for taking the time to post that. I think or hope everyone has done that as a minimum, I mistakenly thought there was more being done or planned. keep up the good work.

Omega,
You may be disappointed as everyone doesn't know about RAMP. And some, as another posted "I've done the usual letters and emails without results." have done less. But, every little bit helps.
 
You are correct that many MLAs are indeed unaware of RAMP and I guess that speaks to the apathy of most hunters. Mine is well aware of what it is as I'm sure yours is. I'm not sure a petition will raise any MLA awareness though but I guess it couldn't hurt.

I don't know that I would use the word apathy. Morton has done very little to inform Ab hunters about RAMP or (HFH previously). Suggesting they are apathetic, is suggesting they know about RAMP and are doing nothing.
 
OK, thank you for taking the time to post that. I think or hope everyone has done that as a minimum, I mistakenly thought there was more being done or planned. keep up the good work.

You are not mistaken. But somethings are best dealt with in person(with people I know and trust) and not broadcast across the interweb especially before they come to fruition.

It probably will surprise you that their are members of this very board who are deeply involved in the fight against RAMP who see no value at all in posting in RAMP threads.
 
The issue with HFH being proposed as a way to pay for RAMP is interesting. The way HFH was proposed was that landowners with habitat would be provided with tags to sell. RAMP provides a small payment for each hunter that accesses a property.

So how would a combination work? Landowners enrolled in RAMP would be provided tags to sell instead of the sum of the small payments?

I am going to go off in another direction for a minute, and if anyone is a farmer / rancher / large landowner, please give me some feedback.

First, let me say that I have no problem with landowners being "rewarded" (I will define in a second) for providing access and quality habitat, especially the latter.

For many years in this country agricultural policies, such as prices set by the Wheat Board depending on how much of your land had been developed, have been the major cause of habitat loss in the "white zone" of the province. Since RAMP is specifically targeted at the White Zone, I think this is important to understand.

Tax incentives have been shown to provide a good "return on investment" for governments. In England (bear with me) landowners receive significant tax breaks on agricultural lands if they leave habitat strips around their crops. These strips are usually planted with mixed grasses and wildflowers which provide excellent habitat for many species. The critical part of this is that the incentive to the landowner is in the form of tax reduction not cash payout, and this is in a country where paying cash for access is unquestioned.

In this country where we hold "public hunting" as an ideal, and I most certainly do, we seem to be heading towards that "user pay" mentality. In southern Ontario properties are being bought up by hunt clubs and individuals with $$$. In Saskatchewan we have "game farms" or "hunt ranches" or whatever you want to call it. These all equate to pay-for-access hunting. RAMP is taking us down this same road.

Sorry, back to ag policies. If tax incentives can cause such extensive draining and channeling of the landscape in Saskatchewan that the City of Winterpeg has to spend X - BILLION dollars for flood control, why not create tax incentives that reverse the damage done? Can we create policies that reward, even indirectly, farmers and landowners for creating wetlands, retaining or allowing regrowth of aspen bluffs, even the existence of rare or endangered species?

Why is this so difficult? Now you do not have to say "Morton believes in private property rights 'a la Texas', and is ideologically driven to change our society". I get that. Probably most of us here get that.

So my question becomes: Is this a viable option, and if so, how do we make it the preferred option? Can an alternative proposal to RAMP capture the imagination of landowners? Opinions?

ETA, an incentive could be as simple as 25 cents a bushel extra if you stop plowing that wet spot in you field every year, $1 extra if you plug that drainage ditch and let that wetland that was drained re form.
 
So my question becomes: Is this a viable option, and if so, how do we make it the preferred option? Can an alternative proposal to RAMP capture the imagination of landowners? Opinions?

I'm sure any payment will captue the imagination of landowners. I suspect they'd prefer it not be tied to access. One of the things that came out of the Land Use Framework was tax incentives to landowners that were good stewards of their private property. Right now we have many MDs actually penalizing those that retain habitat. That would seem a good start to me.

As for opening up land for hunters in Alberta, we have tens of thousands of acres of lease land that cannot be accessed. That would have seemed a logical starting point to me to increase access province wide and it shouldn't cost a cent as we already own the land.

Those are my two solutions for opening up access and rewarding landowners. I'm sure there are others.
 
The issue with HFH being proposed as a way to pay for RAMP is interesting. The way HFH was proposed was that landowners with habitat would be provided with tags to sell. RAMP provides a small payment for each hunter that accesses a property.

So how would a combination work? Landowners enrolled in RAMP would be provided tags to sell instead of the sum of the small payments?

I am going to go off in another direction for a minute, and if anyone is a farmer / rancher / large landowner, please give me some feedback.

I worry about politicians and I worry about semantics.

While I personally have yet to hear that the HFH proposal is dead and to this issue I spoke with Jim Allen and a host of others who used the words, “pulled back”, “withdrawn” and “shelved”, none would confirm to me that it was indeed dead. That was my point blank question and admittedly that was almost a year ago.

In my mind, RAMP is a bit of a toothless dog. How many new landowners that never before allowed hunting suddenly signed on board for this new pilot? So SRD has done a great job in compensating landowners to allow access for hunting when the vast majority of these same landowners already allowed free access for the same purpose in the past.

Many of the landowners who decided not to participate did so because they would relinquish control of their properties by allowing unfettered access to the same. Regardless of rules and signed waivers, landowners are still subject to a burden of potential liabilities. The money is not so great as to compel many to participate when they are effectively giving up control of who accesses their property and what might happen when these individuals are using their property.

This is why the hunter/landowner relationships are so important to the continuation of our outdoor pursuits. Most landowners want to be able to judge the character of the individuals that are granted permission to hunt their private properties. Ironically, this is something that Minister Morton seems so intent in changing under the guise of drawing new hunters to the sport. I’m not suggesting that new hunters are less respectful or suffer flaws in character, but without personal contact most landowners are not going to allow the loose access Morton appears to desire. For most of us, meeting landowners, developing relationships and getting permission to access their private property is all part of the hunting experience. Sometimes it’s bad but often it is rewarding.

I don’t think RAMP will work. Province-wide rollout costs will be astronomical even with a small percentage of landowner participation. As discussed, the average Alberta taxpayer is not going to be too sympathetic to the plight of the hunter in light of their tax dollars being used to compensate participating landowners.

Faced with these challenges, what options does Morton and Company have to advance this scheme? To me, and I’m just speculating here, they will need to proportion the costs to the consumptive users – hunters. It would appear that they have a few options. They can prorate the costs among hunters in the form of increased levy fees (tags and licenses) which I am certain will not be a popular decision with the Alberta hunting community or they can revisit a scheme that will be wildly popular with many landowners called HFH.

Again, all speculation on my part but here is the way I can see it playing out. Alberta’s hunting community is outraged that tags and license fees that once cost the average Albertan in the neighborhood of $100 are now being assessed at $300 - $600 to cover the province-wide costs of RAMP.

SRD suggests a compromise – Hunting for Habitat (but Hunting for Habitat is dead so they decide to call it Hunting for Dollars – semantics - I know I’m cynical but my experiences with politicians have often left me jaded). Hunting for Dollars is touted as the viable option to keep hunting costs reasonable as it only taxes the willing participants. Monies for these special “Minister’s Tags” with special access rights attached are paid to the Province and the Province in turn, pays the select participating landowners a healthy compensation for conservation, habitat and management initiatives.

Hunters are both angry and relieved. They are angry because the Province was successful in creating an elitist system of paid hunting and turned much of the prime private land into something of a private hunting club but they are also relieved that it won’t cost a lot more money to enjoy what is left of our pastime.

As I see it, and from what I have been told, RAMP is the thin edge of the wedge. Morton’s brass ring is Hunting for Habitat or something very similar - likely with a different name. I’m guessing that if you like RAMP you better like the whole package.
 
Pudelpointer, I should have also added that I have been to a few landowners meetings (not WMU's 108 or 300) to discuss the Open Spaces proposal. None of the landowners in attendance liked RAMP because of the lack of control and potential liabilities. HFH was clearly paid hunting and most were against the concept. However, if forced to make a choice between the two, every landowner in attendance chose HFH.

I was surprised when the issue of tax incentives was brought up. There was very little interest as most of the agricultural landowners felt that they would never be in a position where they needed any additional tax incentives. Reductions in property tax at the local level, might in fact be counter-productive to habitat in that in order to maximize the available incentive one might expect a lot more development on individual quarters especially in land which might be better suited towards recreational versus agricultural pursuits. Just some observations from landowner meetings.
 
Reductions in property tax at the local level, might in fact be counter-productive to habitat in that in order to maximize the available incentive one might expect a lot more development on individual quarters especially in land which might be better suited towards recreational versus agricultural pursuits.

Interstingly, it was property taxes that came out of the LUF that should be the incentive, indeed benefiting all regardless of their taxable income. The tax incentives recommended were for retaining habitat, not converting to agricultural or developing. Recreational properties that are now taxed at very high municipal rates in most municipalities would actually be recognized for their important habitat contribution. Right now, the incentive to save on property taxes is conversion to crop land or livestock grazing. There was also a suggestion of developing a formula to reward current agricultural property based on retained habitat. I'm sure the details are onerous but it did address Albertan's desires to reward good stewards of the land without it being tied to access. In fact, access was never mentioned in the group I sat in nor was it in any of the ones I reviewed but rewarding landowners was a reoccuring theme.
 
Currently, existing agricultural properties with high habitat values are not taxed at high values. I have just over 6 quarters of land that would fit into any definition of excellent habitat and I am taxed at less than $100 per quarter.

The details are indeed onerous and perhaps impossibly lofty and I have spoken to both Municipal Affairs and individual M.D. Tax Assesors about such a proposal. The question asked back to me was “where does the money come from in order to make up for the obvious shortfall in the Mill Rate?”. That was literally the million dollar question.

I respectfully disagree that the incentive to save on property taxes is conversion to crop land or livestock grazing in most instances particularly in cases where the land has been assessed as recreational. The capital and input costs of conversion are too great and quite frankly even a goal of “break even” return on investment is likely unrealistic. If land is being converted I am confident that it has little or nothing to do with property tax but rather the economies of scale principle.

Admittedly, I have not seen the details or plans on how the Province or individual municipalities might undertake such a program, but I fear that I don’t see any meaningful results.

What is quite interesting in all of this is that many of the driving landowners (especially in WMU300) were complaining about the vanishing rural economy and landscape at the hands of the “gentleman rancher”. Indeed, Minister Morton even echoed that sentiment as a concern in the process. In these particular instances it would appear that many of these weekend cowboys and cowgirls are the true stewards of the land as they are not driven by financial return. Whether they chose to allow hunting or not is arbitrary to their contributions to habitat and wildlife.

As has been said in this discussion before, when it comes to wildlife and habitat, those driven solely by financial reward are likely to be the least principled.
 
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I respectfully disagree that the incentive to save on property taxes is conversion to crop land or livestock grazing in most instances particularly in cases where the land has been assessed as recreational. The capital and input costs of conversion are too great and quite frankly even a goal of “break even” return on investment is likely unrealistic. If land is being converted I am confident that it has little or nothing to do with property tax but rather the economies of scale principle.

Interstingly, we have a large number of recreational properties being grazed in the municipality where I reside for the sole reason of circumventing the property taxes that come with that designation. While in some cases cattle grazing can enhance habitat values for some species, when it is being done strictly to save on taxes, I doubt that much planning is involved.

Perhaps the considerable land conversion that's going on in northern areas of the province would be done more responsibly if there were rewards for the retention of marginal agricultural areas/high habitat value areas. Right now there is zero incentive not to bulldoze and burn every tree and drain every wetland. While you are likely right that tax incentives would not prevent land conversion, it may encourage land owners to do it more responsibly if there was something in it for them. Right now that onous falls square on the shoulders of non-profit groups willing to pay landowners for conservation easements. Perhaps the government should assume some responsibility. Obviously that type of financial incentive is meaningful to landowners when you consider the number of acres under CE in the province. I'm sure it would be even higher yet if the money was there from sources other than NGOs.
 
Moon;3813549 As has been said in this discussion before said:
Agreed Moon.

I often wonder what would happen to this "pristine" range land in the south if the production of certain targeted ecological goods and service prove to be more lucrative?
 
I worry about politicians and I worry about semantics.

While I personally have yet to hear that the HFH proposal is dead and to this issue I spoke with Jim Allen and a host of others who used the words, “pulled back”, “withdrawn” and “shelved”, none would confirm to me that it was indeed dead. That was my point blank question and admittedly that was almost a year ago.

In my mind, RAMP is a bit of a toothless dog. How many new landowners that never before allowed hunting suddenly signed on board for this new pilot? So SRD has done a great job in compensating landowners to allow access for hunting when the vast majority of these same landowners already allowed free access for the same purpose in the past.

Many of the landowners who decided not to participate did so because they would relinquish control of their properties by allowing unfettered access to the same. Regardless of rules and signed waivers, landowners are still subject to a burden of potential liabilities. The money is not so great as to compel many to participate when they are effectively giving up control of who accesses their property and what might happen when these individuals are using their property.

This is why the hunter/landowner relationships are so important to the continuation of our outdoor pursuits. Most landowners want to be able to judge the character of the individuals that are granted permission to hunt their private properties. Ironically, this is something that Minister Morton seems so intent in changing under the guise of drawing new hunters to the sport. I’m not suggesting that new hunters are less respectful or suffer flaws in character, but without personal contact most landowners are not going to allow the loose access Morton appears to desire. For most of us, meeting landowners, developing relationships and getting permission to access their private property is all part of the hunting experience. Sometimes it’s bad but often it is rewarding.

I don’t think RAMP will work. Province-wide rollout costs will be astronomical even with a small percentage of landowner participation. As discussed, the average Alberta taxpayer is not going to be too sympathetic to the plight of the hunter in light of their tax dollars being used to compensate participating landowners.

Faced with these challenges, what options does Morton and Company have to advance this scheme? To me, and I’m just speculating here, they will need to proportion the costs to the consumptive users – hunters. It would appear that they have a few options. They can prorate the costs among hunters in the form of increased levy fees (tags and licenses) which I am certain will not be a popular decision with the Alberta hunting community or they can revisit a scheme that will be wildly popular with many landowners called HFH.

Again, all speculation on my part but here is the way I can see it playing out. Alberta’s hunting community is outraged that tags and license fees that once cost the average Albertan in the neighborhood of $100 are now being assessed at $300 - $600 to cover the province-wide costs of RAMP.

SRD suggests a compromise – Hunting for Habitat (but Hunting for Habitat is dead so they decide to call it Hunting for Dollars – semantics - I know I’m cynical but my experiences with politicians have often left me jaded). Hunting for Dollars is touted as the viable option to keep hunting costs reasonable as it only taxes the willing participants. Monies for these special “Minister’s Tags” with special access rights attached are paid to the Province and the Province in turn, pays the select participating landowners a healthy compensation for conservation, habitat and management initiatives.

Hunters are both angry and relieved. They are angry because the Province was successful in creating an elitist system of paid hunting and turned much of the prime private land into something of a private hunting club but they are also relieved that it won’t cost a lot more money to enjoy what is left of our pastime.

As I see it, and from what I have been told, RAMP is the thin edge of the wedge. Morton’s brass ring is Hunting for Habitat or something very similar - likely with a different name. I’m guessing that if you like RAMP you better like the whole package.

Summed up pretty well too.
 
Agreed Moon.

I often wonder what would happen to this "pristine" range land in the south if the production of certain targeted ecological goods and service prove to be more lucrative?

I think you only need look north to see what happens when canola becomes more valuable than poplar. The native prairie and foothills fescue landscape is unique and only a fraction of it remains so I think your statement hits the nail right on the head why its value needs to exceed what it can produce in cows. Grain prices are good right now, conversion is attractive. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. There's no getting it back.
 
As a perfect illustration to the RAMP discussion (as it was modelled after the Montana BMP), look at what has happened to total land available in Montana as grain prices rose. There was an article last year that suggested a great deal of the land where the BMP contracts were expiring, was going to be taken out of the program and converted to crops.
 
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