Random Idea To Combat Straw Purchases

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Classic_Cool

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One of the supposed bones the govt has to pick with us is the notion that licensed gun owners are turning around and selling guns to criminals.

Now, when I got licensed, it was made clear to me that the RCMP could come and inspect my collection with 24 hours notice if they ever desired. To date, that has never happened, and I doubt it's happened to you either. Hypothetically, I could probably have sold my entire collection and they'd never know it until after I'm dead. I'm guessing they just don't have the manpower for such activities, not that I was looking forward to it or anything.

So what about this: Once a year you get a notice from the CFO saying they want to verify a random handgun in your possession. You bring it to the range, to the gun store, to the police station, whatever is most practical for the region you live in, and the authorized representative just snaps a picture of it and verifies the presence of a serial number. Done.

They'll have verified you didn't sell it to a gang, and they can stop bellyaching about straw purchases when it comes time to ban guns.
 
Classic_Cool said:
One of the supposed bones the govt has to pick with us is the notion that licensed gun owners are turning around and selling guns to criminals.

Now, when I got licensed, it was made clear to me that the RCMP could come and inspect my collection with 24 hours notice if they ever desired. To date, that has never happened, and I doubt it's happened to you either. Hypothetically, I could probably have sold my entire collection and they'd never know it until after I'm dead. I'm guessing they just don't have the manpower for such activities, not that I was looking forward to it or anything.

So what about this: Once a year you get a notice from the CFO saying they want to verify a random handgun in your possession. You bring it to the range, to the gun store, to the police station, whatever is most practical for the region you live in, and the authorized representative just snaps a picture of it and verifies the presence of a serial number. Done.

They'll have verified you didn't sell it to a gang, and they can stop bellyaching about straw purchases when it comes time to ban guns.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we read differently - I thought it was the CFO that could come to inspect on 24 hour notice - with a search warrant, RCMP can legally barge in about whenever they want to ...
 
Potashminer said:
Perhaps we read differently - I thought it was the CFO that could come to inspect on 24 hour notice - with a search warrant, RCMP can legally barge in about whenever they want to ...
Click to expand...

Been 10 years so I don't remember the exact wording. I don't recall any mention of warrants.
 
You’re playing in to the government/MSM propaganda. The amount of straw purchases of restricted firearms is pretty much zero. The numbers are negligible. This is just another talking point for the politicians to scare the general public.

You are trying to find a way to appease a political agenda that won’t be appeased. We have tried for the last 30 years to have fact based, logical discussions with this same group - it’s impossible! They won’t be happy until EVERY firearm is prohibited. They simply go at it one small incremental step at a time - just ask the guys that have 12-2, 12-3, etc. They use talking points, without any facts backing them, to scare the public, and to divide people - even in the firearms community. Everybody runs around like chickens with their heads cut off, scrambling to save their toys, hoping the government won’t target them this time. THEY’LL GET AROUND TO EVERYONE EVENTUALLY - MAKE UP YOUR MIND TO THIS. Either make the decision to fight, or come to terms with the fact that this government, if they get to remain in power long enough, will insure that we are all made criminals because we want to retain ownership of our personal property.
 
KePet said:
You’re playing in to the government/MSM propaganda. The amount of straw purchases of restricted firearms is pretty much zero. The numbers are negligible. This is just another talking point for the politicians to scare the general public.

You are trying to find a way to appease a political agenda that won’t be appeased. We have tried for the last 30 years to have fact based, logical discussions with this same group - it’s impossible! They won’t be happy until EVERY firearm is prohibited. They simply go at it one small incremental step at a time - just ask the guys that have 12-2, 12-3, etc. They use talking points, without any facts backing them, to scare the public, and to divide people - even in the firearms community. Everybody runs around like chickens with their heads cut off, scrambling to save their toys, hoping the government won’t target them this time. THEY’LL GET AROUND TO EVERYONE EVENTUALLY - MAKE UP YOUR MIND TO THIS. Either make the decision to fight, or come to terms with the fact that this government, if they get to remain in power long enough, will insure that we are all made criminals because we want to retain ownership of our personal property.
Click to expand...


Well said.
 
Why come to your house, why not just send a photo beside today's newspaper and what ever else they want in picture.
I dont like anybody in my house or on my property unless invited. Now the fire hall, MPAC whoever seems to think they can just walk around your property.
They are quick to quote its within the rules. I wont put a animal down because you decided to walk around without me there and are missing fingers now.
 
tj black said:
Why come to your house, why not just send a photo beside today's newspaper and what ever else they want in picture.
I dont like anybody in my house or on my property unless invited. Now the fire hall, MPAC whoever seems to think they can just walk around your property.
They are quick to quote its within the rules. I wont put a animal down because you decided to walk around without me there and are missing fingers now.
Click to expand...

Think that's bad... you should try dealing with TORAC... had a small unused previously licensed gravel pit on my property, and one day (in the middle of deer hunting season no less) some citidiot shows up in his shiny new truck and starts wandering around my property wearing brown in a pair of steel-toed boots he bought on the trip down from Toronto... saw him take them off and put them back in the box when he was done...
 
KePet said:
You’re playing in to the government/MSM propaganda. The amount of straw purchases of restricted firearms is pretty much zero. The numbers are negligible. This is just another talking point for the politicians to scare the general public.
Click to expand...
^This^

The government could always make straw purchasing restricted firearms a crime. That would prevent the tiny percentage of straw purchases from happening in the first place.

Oh...wait...never mind.


I get that some don't recognize sarcasm when they read it.
 
They could address crime instead of focusing on us. Bending over backwards even more is hardly a solution to anything. Straw purchases are also barely a problem in Canada. I think there have been half a dozen instances or so, at least that have received significant media exposure.
 
No licensed gun owner is going to jump through all the restricted hoops, wait for transfers and approvals etc. just to turn around and sell a gun that they will still be registered and responsible for to a criminal.
 
Classic_Cool said:
One of the supposed bones the govt has to pick with us is the notion that licensed gun owners are turning around and selling guns to criminals.

Now, when I got licensed, it was made clear to me that the RCMP could come and inspect my collection with 24 hours notice if they ever desired. To date, that has never happened, and I doubt it's happened to you either. Hypothetically, I could probably have sold my entire collection and they'd never know it until after I'm dead. I'm guessing they just don't have the manpower for such activities, not that I was looking forward to it or anything.

So what about this: Once a year you get a notice from the CFO saying they want to verify a random handgun in your possession. You bring it to the range, to the gun store, to the police station, whatever is most practical for the region you live in, and the authorized representative just snaps a picture of it and verifies the presence of a serial number. Done.

They'll have verified you didn't sell it to a gang, and they can stop bellyaching about straw purchases when it comes time to ban guns.
Click to expand...

This is why gun owners are screwed. Because we keep suggesting these senseless performative intrusions into our lives as if some how if we jump through enough the hoops the gun grabbers will give up their zealous crusade against civilian firearms ownership.

The reason why you have never been inspected, is because you have never said or done anything to give the police reasonable and probable grounds to suspect that you are involved in a criminal offence. It is not a failure of the police to NOT harass people not involved in criminal offences.

Do you know who does get inspected? People who have reported losing multiple firearms in a single year. People who transfer dozens of firearms at a time and then transfer them again days later. People who have had their registered firearms recovered at crime scenes.

Police are stretched to the limit as it is. Neither gun owners nor the police should advocate that we waste anyone's time with performative nonsense. I've got better things to do than to proactively prove my innocence, and the police have better things to do than to gather evidence from innocent firearms owners who have not been involved in any offences.

You want an actual suggestion to deal with straw purchasing? Step 1. Make straw purchasing illegal. Fun fact, right now, straw purchasing isn't illegal. Nor is it illegal to obtain a PAL with the intent to straw purchase.

Step 2. Create a national data base of firearm crime statistics that standardizes collection and reporting of things such as 'crime gun' and records whether a criminal is a PAL holder or not, so that we can actually determine to what extent straw purchasing actually happens.

The onus is on government to solve these problems with out interfering in the lives of the innocent. What you are suggesting is a massive interference in the lives of the innocent that will in no way help the government solve the problem.

What you are suggesting is simply providing an opportunity to gun owners to say something wrong, and get themselves in trouble, with no benefit to society whatsoever. No thanks.
 
Government never does an economic plan on the impact various new laws have on the ordinary
taxpayer's.
They have destroyed the value of many firearms that are in firearms collection's
 
Potashminer said:
Perhaps we read differently - I thought it was the CFO that could come to inspect on 24 hour notice - with a search warrant, RCMP can legally barge in about whenever they want to ...
Click to expand...

The Firearms Act says that a 'Firearms Officer' can inspect any place at any time, other than a dwelling, with no notice. But must give notice if its a dwelling house. That is, notice to the occupant. The Firearms Officer does not need a warrant to search if they have reasonable belief that a firearm, or a record of a firearm is present. that can include pictures of firearms on your cell phone. Pretty much anyone.

In practice, when they give notice, they are giving you a limited opportunity to choose when the inspection will happen. When, not if. If you refuse to provide a time, they can rely on the refusal on its own, as grounds to obtain a search warrant.

Who a 'Firearms Officer' is depends on your province. it could mean a person designated as a firearms officer by your CFO. You might have provincial legislation that designates every police officer as a firearms officer.

If your CFOs office is staffed by RCMP, then it could be the RCMP. Or if you are in an opt in province such as Ontario or Quebec it could be OPP or SQ.

People seem to think that its really easy for police to get a search warrant. On the contrary police actually need to have a pretty solid evidentiary basis for getting one. The fact that a firearms officer can get a search warrant based on a refusal to provide a time for an otherwise warrantless search is probably unconstitutional, but its not been challenged on that basis.

At the same time, while our community has long lamented our liability for warrantless searches under the act, numerous supreme court decisions have affirmed that warrantless searches are presumptively unconstitutional, and that the only circumstances where a warrantless search could be justified, is where there are serious exigent circumstances that make obtaining a warrant impracticable.

The routine fishing trips that 'Firearms Officers' might want to go on would almost never qualify as meeting the test of constitutionality for a warrantless search, and I suspect that the Firearms Officers are not particularly interested in pushing their luck and having the constitutionality of the warrantless search provisions of the Firearms Act tested (and probably struck down).
 
Cameron SS: is maybe a couple points - your post # 19 appears to assume that only the Firearms Act provides jurisdiction for an RCMP "invasion" of one's home and property - I suspect other parts of Canada's criminal code might authorize such police action? I do not know what experience that you might have about concerns of a uniformed officer booting down a door - I suspect from their point of view, if someone in authority (over them) said "go", they would "go". So much to be sorted out afterwards, if the "victim" has the where-with-all to hire a good lawyer who will persue the issue to the end in Supreme Court of Canada - my limited experience is that average "joe" Canadian will not pay for that ...
 
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