Range Day with my MV and Baer

onetwentyish said:
I am not going to touch on accurracy because many folks seem to discount any positive reports as false or freek event, but I will say you cant fairly pad your cost based argument by pitting a MV that is optioned out against your run of the mill basic ##### AR.

Comparing a base furniture AR to a custom furniture MV is heavily swaying the point you are trying to make and for what gain?

Its $1k vs $3.35k.

And even that is a stretch when uou consider the base components on the MV are usually considered aftermarket and certainly are not considered basic parts when installed on an AR (barrels, trigger, JP SCS buffer, ambi bolt release).

Since basic on the MV is the cheapest option we can achieve, we must at minimum spec out an AR to match the MV as a fair comparison.

Lilja barrels are $620usd.
Timney AR triggers are $240usd.
JP SCS is $225cad.
Ambi bolt release $50?
Exchange at 1.32, total is $1410.

So a comparable spec'd AR is $840 less then a MV. I know you will say the AR will shoot better, but you will also know I will say that AR is still restricted.

The difference is my negative claim is irrefutable and not up for debate, unlike the claim of accuracy issues which greatly depends on the shooters capabilities and ammo used/reloading capabilities.

There are a ton of variables to the accuracy argument that could be the life or death of decent accuracy in this platform.
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Here we go with the ammo and capability..... I burn through 15-20lbs of powder a year. I only own precision rifles. And I keep falling into the black rifle trap. And sell them within a few months because the accuracy is poor. And I know there not designed for 1/2" accuracy like I expect from my many bolt rifles. But I get bored because that's what I love. I don't run in the forest playing Rambo. Not my cup of tea.

I honestly don't get your argument. Your trying to explain to me how a base priced MH is roughly the same as a cheap AR??? So based on your math a MH is 30% more expensive. And you act like that is no big deal. When the reality is your math is wrong because my MH costed about $4600 to my door. I'm not sure what your argument is trying to.prove??? My point was a $2000 xcr shoots the same if not better then my MH did. I am not trying to be a hater. I appreciate what ATRS did by bringing a non restricted rifle to Canada. And I am proof of that since I layed my money down over 6 months before I actually got mine. And I was terribly let down. And no it's not the shooter or the ammo. I'm sure there are better shooters then me out there. But not good enough to magically accurize a rifle that is not accurate.
 
onetwentyish said:
I am not going to touch on accurracy because many folks seem to discount any positive reports as false or freek event, but I will say you cant fairly pad your cost based argument by pitting a MV that is optioned out against your run of the mill basic ##### AR.
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a nice stag arms or daniel defense competition models is around $2200-$2400 right now..... those to me would be a favourable comparison (or a kac sr-15e3 @ $3200), bascially all "semi-custom" guns
 
beltfed said:
What are they?

The AR really only needs a good barrel and good ammo. Arguably a good trigger too.

The MV and MH seem to have all of those and shoots like above? Something isn't adding up
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The term "ockham's razor" comes to mind.
 
Chago said:
Careful. The lazers are positioning over us now lol
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Not the first time, won't be the last. I've been a #### disturber around here for almost a dozen years, I stopped caring about the opinions and feelings of the Mod/Admin Corps & site owner as a whole when USP got canned. Hell, I've even had my name in pink once or twice, and all it did was make me more curmudgeonly. There are other Canadian gun boards I frequent. One actually has really good technical info being exchanged in some areas, the other one has really good technical info being exchanged in others, and both combined blow this place clean out of the water these days. I'm only here for the OT section, and that subforum has lost its entertainment value dramatically over the last 18 months.

P0WERWAGON said:
ww2-german-accuracy-is-being-questioned-send-fan-bois-now.jpg
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Truth right there.
Redblack said:
I would think that if there were widespread accuracy issues with the MH and MV we would see more threads on them. So far I've only seen the last one from a few days ago that got deleted. I think I've read more positive reviews on these rifles than negative.
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Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it?
onetwentyish said:
I am not going to touch on accurracy because many folks seem to discount any positive reports as false or freek event, but I will say you cant fairly pad your cost based argument by pitting a MV that is optioned out against your run of the mill basic ##### AR.

Comparing a base furniture AR to a custom furniture MV is heavily swaying the point you are trying to make and for what gain?
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I'd say he can. For one, The proof is in the pudding with his targets. And calling a Les Baer a basic ##### AR is a pretty long stretch. FWIW, I think my DPMS is capable of tighter groups than that MV. I'd have to put something a little better than a 1-4x variable on top to see. If you want to lend me something with at least 24x magnification and the rings to go with it (just so I don't have to futz with anything, just snug it to my rail and go) I'll be happy to have a go.
 
FWIW, the Les Baer is similar in price to the MV. I believe I paid around $3500US for the Baer, and I got it when the Canadian dollar was close to par with the USD. Now, it would probably be closer to $5K. So these two guns are pretty similar price-wise.

I haven't given up on the MV yet. As far as accuracy goes there are the following variables that I can think of:

1. Gun
2. Optic/rings
3. Ammo
4. Shooter
5. Weather/environment

So, I do have a couple of boxes of Federal Gold Medal left, which I can try, as well as try out different handloads. Once I settle on a good combination of Varget and SMK for the Baer, I'm planning on moving the scope and mount from the Baer to the MV to rule out the rings as an issue. I know the scope is good because that was what I was using on the Baer before I switched to the fixed mag scope.

As far as 4 and 5, those are the biggest weaknesses since I have no idea how to read, let alone compensate, for wind. I just try to get to the range when the wind is down. And yeah, I suck at shooting.
 
beltfed said:
What are they?

The AR really only needs a good barrel and good ammo. Arguably a good trigger too.

The MV and MH seem to have all of those and shoots like above? Something isn't adding up
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chamber and bolt lock up would matter as well, maybe the bolt is not locking up exactly the same each time, therefore the combustion is different, resulting in different velocity?
 
Here is one thing for everyone to really think about.

This is the third year Trinimon have been running the "my black rifle shoots sub MOA all day long challenge" you figure there would be at least one person on that list with a really nice set up like a KAC, Noveske or MH, but so far the only two rifles that have made it to the list is a re-barreled Norinco the other one is a build based on a set NEA receivers.
 
hbean said:
Here is one thing for everyone to really think about.

This is the third year Trinimon have been running the "my black rifle shoots sub MOA all day long challenge" you figure there would be at least one person on that list with a really nice set up like a KAC, Noveske or MH, but so far the only two rifles that have made it to the list is a re-barreled Norinco the other one is a build based on a set NEA receivers.
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emmm....

have you looked at the previous years?

Also this challenge is as much a challenge for the rifle as it is for the shooter.


2015:
- Successfully Shot 3/4MOA or better -
Caramel - 0.593", 0.578", 0.462", 0.358", 0.549" with FNAR 308


- Successfully Shot Sub-MOA -
Rtracer13 - 0.801", 1.021", 0.880", 0.994", 0.749" with an AR15
Caramel - 0.672", 0.870", 0.805", 1.008", 1.008" with KAC SR15
ciPeterF - 0.887", 0.685", 0.785", 0.928, 1.011"

~ Honourable Mention ~
CLG - 1.033", 0.965", 1.863", 0.961", 0.807" with an XCR
Caramel - 0.572", 0.827", 1", 1.122", 0.872" with an AR10T
Graveman - 0.80", 0.840", 0.716", 0.782", 1.250" with an ACR
ciPeterF - 0.900", 0.610", 0.908", 0.542", 1.250" with an AR15 w/ 16" Criterion barrel
zupermann - 0.855, 0.610", 0.475", 1.18", 0.88" with an Adcor Piston Upper
rodauto - 1.139", 0.973", 0.664", 0.942", 0.764" with a Norinco M14S with Springfield (SAI) medium weight take off barrel
Mikethebike - 0.677, 0.577", 1.027", 1.277", 0.777" with a Colt Canada AR15 w/ Noveske 18" SPR barrel

2016:
Mystic Precision - 0.711, 0.697, 0.632, 0.664, 0.758

- Successfully Shot Sub-MOA -
Mystic Precision - 0.856, 0.889, 0.676, 0.944, 0.851
SQR - 0.639, 0.826, 0.728, 0.901, 0.426

~ Honourable Mention ~
SQR - 0.727, 1.163, 0.719, 0.775, 0.590


2017:
SQR See Post #6 (NEA)

~ Honourable Mention ~
Redshooter See Post #15 (COLT HBAR)
 
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Redblack said:
So far I've only seen the last one from a few days ago that got deleted.
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You can't blame them for bombing that thread. The OP crapped on the rifle over 10 shots on a windy day with a load developed for another rifle. I'd bomb it too...

Here's where I'm leaning toward ammo and shooter (mostly ammo). ATRS seems to have a good reputation for custom bolt guns, it's been a while since I loitered in the Precision Rifle section but I don't recall any complaints. In fact I don't recall anything but great reviews of their products. Apples to Oranges? Yes, that's true, but I think it's safe to say that what counts is attention to detail and precise work on the machine tools. If their bolt guns are any indication they seem to have it down pat. You don't have to do any digging to find a thread about the relationship between how outright slop between the upper and lower receiver will have no effect on the rifles ability to print tight groups...at least according to the majority. So, according to the consensus of the majority it's all down to bolt lock up and barrel, and if so how can a shop with a great reputation for custom bolt guns suddenly fall apart because they are cutting chambers for a semi? Applying a bit of logic, it's down to the ammo/shooter (let's not forget scope), or all those guys are wrong about the magwedge...

hbean brought up the MOA challenge, there's been a dozen AR-15's (one AR-10) listed with an Honorable Mention or better in three years, more telling is only two used factory ammo.

I've been able to get a half dozen bolt guns and one AR to shoot sub MOA on a consistent basis. I'd be happy to test a MV/MH to see if I can do it with another...all I need is the rifle and a cheque for powder and projectiles.
 
What they should do is to promote and circulate a YouTube accuracy review done by one of the well known YouTube gun personalities, you fill in the blank name.
 
norlandgeese said:
What they should do is to promote and circulate a YouTube accuracy review done by one of the well known YouTube gun personalities, you fill in the blank name.
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There is an amazing shooter and war vet hero right in that area, M. Rob Furlong
If you want an honest review of the MV he's the guy I would trust to do it.
 
mikethebike said:
There is an amazing shooter and war vet hero right in that area, M. Rob Furlong
If you want an honest review of the MV he's the guy I would trust to do it.
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Well, I wish someone with his credentials would step up and review the rifles already....the lack such is IMHO making these rifles look like they aren't making the cut.
 
hawk-i said:
Well, I wish someone with his credentials would step up and review the rifles already....the lack such is IMHO making these rifles look like they aren't making the cut.
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Well he's not going to do a positive review for free.
And he's not going to do a negative review for fear of being sued.

So kinda a kerfurkle.
 
norlandgeese said:
What they should do is to promote and circulate a YouTube accuracy review done by one of the well known YouTube gun personalities, you fill in the blank name.
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Just because someone makes lots of videos doesn't mean they can shoot well (not talking about RF). Most of the video guys these days seem to simply post lots of videos and spew their opinion of things based on what they've read on the internet.
I've offered to take onetwentyish's MH and do some load development but I've just done some shuffling in my collection and now have four of my own rifles to do load development on before I spend time working on someone else's rifle.

We need to remember that shooting sub moa is not only about the rifle but ammo selection and more importantly shooter ability. I've shot tons of sub moa groups over the last few years but to be able to repeat that over and over is very difficult and all it takes is one little twitch and that group is ruined. From what I've seen first hand and also read so far about owners of MH's and MV's is that most of them are not very experienced shooters and many of them don't really understand that ammo selection plays a huge role in accuracy. I have yet to see anyone post a picture of a group printed using Federal Gold Medal Match or Nosler Match or Black Hills match ammo. It's always cheap ammo or handloads that worked well in a different rifle.
I'm a little tired of all the bash posts that keep coming out, I'm no fanboy and just judge firearms on my personal experiences with them, I've shot a few hundred rounds through three different MH's and can say that they are a very well built rifle and with the right ammo I can't see any reason they shouldn't be able to shoot sub moa. I spent a couple days at the range with the original owner of onetwentyish's MH and we were getting fairly consistent 1.5moa from Hornady 168gr z-max so with a little load tuning I think 0.9 or better should be very possible.
I really don't understand why more owners don't spend the time to find a good load or develop a good load for these rifles. There have been a couple reports from guys who said they tried everything and couldn't get it to shoot but then sold it rather than contacting ATRS to see if they could find a problem with the rifle.
I'm hoping things dry up around my place soon so I can shoot prone again (puddles everywhere) and that I have good luck with my other rifles and find good loads quickly so I can take Onetwentyish's MH and find out what these can do.

If you really want to know what a rifle can do then buy one and see for yourself, relying on people you know nothing about tells you nothing. As we've all seen there are more than a couple guys on this site who appear to have a real hate on for ATRS and seem willing to spend a lot of energy discrediting their products. If you don't know the person away from this site everything here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. A fanboy could post pics claiming they were shot at 100 yards but were actually shot at 50 yards, a hater could claim it was match ammo but instead was pulling it out of a south African battle pack. You just never know unless you do it yourself. There are a few on the EE now for prices you could resell them for so there really is no risk in seeing for yourself.
 
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