Range Day with my MV and Baer

[Zeroed-In]

If the weather cooperates, this weekend I'll be comparing my MV to my KAC SR15 with FGMM. I also have some lighter, premium PMC that I'll try through my Swiss and the MV. I suspect I'm one of the ones that falls into your 'less experienced shooters' category. I'm fine with that. But if I outshoot my MV with my Swiss and KAC, I think that will be pretty telling. If they all shoot fairly similar, I'll be very happy

Hopefully the weather is good.

I'll be looking forward to this comparison and really do want to see not only how the MV compares, but also how the SA stacks up against the all mighty KAC SR15.

No worries on the super shooter skills Ianfroese, like CR5 mentioned (other then the ammo. differences in each rifle) the comparisons should be fair since the shooter is consistent.

Cheers D

 

[Epoxy7]

He does own 1 in 6.5 CM and has expressed to us that it shoots and works extremely well.

Last time this was stated... Rob Furlong was asked about it and he advised that he only had one box through his and hadn't tested for accuracy. Has this changed since then?

I'll be looking forward to this comparison and really do want to see not only how the MV compares, but also how the SA stacks up against the all mighty KAC SR15.

A fair comparison would be the MV compared against the KAC SR15 with Krieger barrel version, LMT with SS barrel, Noveske etc. Comparing combat rifles for accuracy vs rifles with match barrels should be a pretty one sided comparison for accuracy. Although today's CL barrels are pretty good at 1 moa or just a bit below for the better ones.

 

[ATRS Shaun]

Last time this was stated... Rob Furlong was asked about it and he advised that he only had one box through his and hadn't tested for accuracy. Has this changed since then?



A fair comparison would be the MV compared against the KAC SR15 with Krieger barrel version, LMT with SS barrel, Noveske etc. Comparing combat rifles for accuracy vs rifles with match barrels should be a pretty one sided comparison for accuracy. Although today's CL barrels are pretty good at 1 moa or just a bit below for the better ones.

Last we spoke with him, which wasn't that long ago. However, we're reluctant to quote our clients without their permission. If he chose to write something about it that would be up to him, but as he is employed by another rifle manufacturer (Cadex) we wouldn't want to put him in an uncomfortable situation.

 

[hawk-i]

Last we spoke with him, which wasn't that long ago. However, we're reluctant to quote our clients without their permission. If he chose to write something about it that would be up to him, but as he is employed by another rifle manufacturer (Cadex) we wouldn't want to put him in an uncomfortable situation.

Does Cadex build a semi-auto precision rifle like the MH or MV?

 

[ATRS Shaun]

Does Cadex build a semi-auto precision rifle like the MH or MV?

They make some beautiful precision bolt rifles, as well as AR15 and AR10 lowers. We also offer precision bolt action rifles, even with the option of a Cadex chassis.

 

[Olyar15]

Round 2.

Today was much windier than a couple of days ago. Used a known-good scope mount on the MV, and tried some Federal Powershok and GMM. Also tried some more handloads for the Baer.

The results are better but still not great:

Best is about 2MOA with one of the Powershok groups. The GMM was disappointing, in excess of 3MOA.

This is what the Baer did:

Also not the best. The GMM did 1MOA or better, and I was able to get some decent groups with the handloads but I was very inconsistent. I'll chalk that up to rust and wind.

As for the MV, not sure where to go from here. It seems to like slightly lighter bullets. I have some Hornady 53gr BTHP that I'll try to see if the rifle likes that. But earlier groups with 52gr bullets were also not promising.

 

[Uisge]

I would suggest 60gr nosler (the orange ballistic tips) and IMR 4895. I've yet to find a rifle that didn't like that combo, More for my own curiosity than anything else.

 

[Brianma65]

Try 53g Hornady vmax,CFE-223,I've had great success with factory and reloads .

 

[cr5]

I would suggest 60gr nosler (the orange ballistic tips) and IMR 4895. I've yet to find a rifle that didn't like that combo, More for my own curiosity than anything else.

Those projectiles and CFE-223 are my go to for 223 semi auto's. Two of my HK SL8's (7 twist) have all liked that combo and were able to shoot them into an inch at 100 yards.

 

[Uisge]

Those projectiles and CFE-223 are my go to for 223 semi auto's. Two of my HK SL8's (7 twist) have all liked that combo and were able to shoot them into an inch at 100 yards.

My sl-8 loved them as well, even an su-16 shot them well. The only thing that didn't was my old t97, but it didn't like anything. I wanted to try cfe but IMR 4895 is so easy to find and works great in 308 as well, it's pretty much all I use nowadays.

 

[Chago]

The Baer shot really well.

 

[redshooter]

OP, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say with this thread. It doesn't appear like you've done any load development so posting pictures of groups and comparing it to another rifle serves no purpose. Just shooting some groups with 69gr SMK's and Varget doesn't = load development. Also depending on the orientation of the range, 30 km/h winds don't make for a good day to shoot groups. If you really want to see how the rifle will perform, do as suggested. Try some other projectiles, esp. flat based 55/60gr, like Hornady V-Max, Nosler Varmageddon, or Sierra Varminter. Also it couldn't hurt to try another powder, as Uisge, and cr5 suggested, IMR-4895, or my favorite H-4895 (W-748 is pretty good stuff too). Look at your manual at powders good for driving heavy bullets (75gr-80gr) if you for some reason can't find one of those two. Perhaps you should take a look at Berger's product line, it'll be one stop shopping for this kind of exercise if you can find a well stocked retailer. 55 gr FB Varmint/60 gr FB Varmint/64 gr FB Varmint, 55 gr FB Target, 73 gr BT Target, and 77 gr OTM Tactical, are available from them. I have no experience with their bullets because to be blunt they're just out of my price range, but if I could put up the cash I'd be giving the 55gr target, and 77gr OTM Tac a try, not sure how big the hollow point is on the Varmint bullets so I'd want to have them in hand before I purchased them.

 

[ATRS Shaun]

Round 2.

Today was much windier than a couple of days ago. Used a known-good scope mount on the MV, and tried some Federal Powershok and GMM. Also tried some more handloads for the Baer.

The results are better but still not great:



Best is about 2MOA with one of the Powershok groups. The GMM was disappointing, in excess of 3MOA.

This is what the Baer did:



Also not the best. The GMM did 1MOA or better, and I was able to get some decent groups with the handloads but I was very inconsistent. I'll chalk that up to rust and wind.

As for the MV, not sure where to go from here. It seems to like slightly lighter bullets. I have some Hornady 53gr BTHP that I'll try to see if the rifle likes that. But earlier groups with 52gr bullets were also not promising.

Keep us appraised of how your load development works out for you, and if you need any assistance we're just an email away: info@albertatacticalrifle.com

 

[Zeroed-In]

Round 2.

The results are better but still not great:

I was able to get some decent groups with the handloads but I was very inconsistent. I'll chalk that up to rust and wind.

Looking forward to Round #3 Olyar, so please keep up your efforts as they are appreciated.

Hopefully the rust will be worn off and the winds will be agreeable for a better day at the range next time.

Cheers D

 

[RifleDude]

Well here's my $0.02. The Les Baer is guaranteed 1/2MOA and the MV should be around 1 MOA or better given the reputation of the makers. Redshooter is right, you have to take the time to work up your loads. I my experience with precision AR15s, there are two things to consider, given that the rifle(s) are capable of the accuracy advertised. The first is the shooter. As mentioned before, it's not easy to consistently shoot small groups. By the pictures, it appears that you have a decent setup with front rest and rear bag. I assume that the shooting table is solid as well. Then it comes down to technique. This includes follow-through when breaking the shot, dialing out parallax on the scope, consistent cheek pressure, etc. The second thing is that of load development. ARs are usually quite finicky in getting the right powder charge. I usually create 8 X 3 round load groups for a given bullet and powder to find the load that gives me the smallest group. I increase the load by 0.2gr from one goup to the next. For instance, 77gr Sierra MK and Varget. I make up 8 loads starting at 23.8gr and up to 25.2gr. When I shoot them, I check for pressure signs when I get to the higher loads. You'll likely find that there are at least two loads that are smaller than the others in the series. One on the low end and one on the high end. You'll also see that the loads just before and after are progressively larger.

I do the same thing all over again for the same bullet but with two or three different powders. After all that I start all over again using the same method but with different bullets. By keeping it to groups of three, you minimize the number of loads to test. Once I've found a few load combinations that give me the accuracy I want, I load up these combinations in two groups of 5 and try them again. You'll find that your groups will be slightly larger but still very tight. This is all part of the fun of precision shooting. I've found that sticking to this procedure has worked well for me in getting accurate loads for my precision AR15.

 

[cr5]

Well here's my $0.02. The Les Baer is guaranteed 1/2MOA and the MV should be around 1 MOA or better given the reputation of the makers. Redshooter is right, you have to take the time to work up your loads. I my experience with precision AR15s, there are two things to consider, given that the rifle(s) are capable of the accuracy advertised. The first is the shooter. As mentioned before, it's not easy to consistently shoot small groups. By the pictures, it appears that you have a decent setup with front rest and rear bag. I assume that the shooting table is solid as well. Then it comes down to technique. This includes follow-through when breaking the shot, dialing out parallax on the scope, consistent cheek pressure, etc. The second thing is that of load development. ARs are usually quite finicky in getting the right powder charge. I usually create 8 X 3 round load groups for a given bullet and powder to find the load that gives me the smallest group. I increase the load by 0.2gr from one goup to the next. For instance, 77gr Sierra MK and Varget. I make up 8 loads starting at 23.8gr and up to 25.2gr. When I shoot them, I check for pressure signs when I get to the higher loads. You'll likely find that there are at least two loads that are smaller than the others in the series. One on the low end and one on the high end. You'll also see that the loads just before and after are progressively larger.

I do the same thing all over again for the same bullet but with two or three different powders. After all that I start all over again using the same method but with different bullets. By keeping it to groups of three, you minimize the number of loads to test. Once I've found a few load combinations that give me the accuracy I want, I load up these combinations in two groups of 5 and try them again. You'll find that your groups will be slightly larger but still very tight. This is all part of the fun of precision shooting. I've found that sticking to this procedure has worked well for me in getting accurate loads for my precision AR15.

This is how I do load development as well.
Picking a couple random loads to try may hit a node with one rifle but not the other which really doesn't tell you much about the true potential of either rifle.
There's really no shortcut to the end, you just have to do full workup for every rifle or you're just relying on luck and hoping something works.

 

[beltfed]

ARs are usually quite finicky in getting the right powder charge.

My experience with ARs and .223 is the exact opposite of this.
The AR and specifically the .223/5.56 is about the easiest round to load for.
Varget (and pretty much most other extruded powders we are playing with in the range) is as easy as stuff a case full and plop a round on top - an analogy, but pretty much what we're doing.

You can go from 24.0-24.5 grains af varget up to 25.0-25.5 grains and send them all into the same poi at 100m quite easily and not see which went where. It isn't until you get out there in distance past 300m (more likely 400-500m) until you see definitive dispersion from the velocity differences created.
If someone is saying they can see what .2 grains of difference is at 100m nevermind 500m, through an AR I'm calling b.s.

 

[RifleDude]

My experience with ARs and .223 is the exact opposite of this.
The AR and specifically the .223/5.56 is about the easiest round to load for.
Varget (and pretty much most other extruded powders we are playing with in the range) is as easy as stuff a case full and plop a round on top - an analogy, but pretty much what we're doing.

You can go from 24.0-24.5 grains af varget up to 25.0-25.5 grains and send them all into the same poi at 100m quite easily and not see which went where. It isn't until you get out there in distance past 300m (more likely 400-500m) until you see definitive dispersion from the velocity differences created.
If someone is saying they can see what .2 grains of difference is at 100m nevermind 500m, through an AR I'm calling b.s.

I totally agree with that if you're talking about standard issue AR15's. They will shoot 1-1.5 inch groups at 100y/m just fine with just about any load. If you want to shoot 0.5" groups at 100y/m, it's a different ballgame in my experience of shooting AR15s for last 30 years or so. The difference between a 0.5MOA and 1 MOA group can be as little as 0.5gr.

 

[Lastgun]

Very nice rifles Olyar...How tight does that CTR stock fit on the MV's buffer tube...Not how tight to slide but when you have it locked in shooting position does it have any slop on the buffer tube that is allowing for your POI to wonder...That PRS stock gives your Les Baer a big accuracy advantage both because of it's being so rigid and how it rides the rear bag...I have a few STR and CTR stocks and none of them were tight on the buffer tube without modification.

 

[mikethebike]

I totally agree with that if you're talking about standard issue AR15's. They will shoot 1-1.5 inch groups at 100y/m just fine with just about any load. If you want to shoot 0.5" groups at 100y/m, it's a different ballgame in my experience of shooting AR15s for last 30 years or so. The difference between a 0.5MOA and 1 MOA group can be as little as 0.5gr.

a standard issue AR15 will not shoot 1 to 1.5 moa with any whatever ammo, more like 2 to 4 moa
a consistant (always) 1 moa AR is quite something, my noveske can barely do it