Rational choice for a Dangerous Game Rifle
- Thread starter oddione
- Start date
- Location
- In the Badlands of Alberta
Before you go too far,why not have your buddy ask his buddy the PH what he suggests for caliber and make of rifle. If it was me I'd go for a 404 Jeffery,this coming from a CZ 550 in 375 H&H owner.
Most countries in Africa have a minimum calibre of 375 for dangerous game and some others have a minimum energy requirement which would preclude the 45-70.
It will be hard to get a setup for less than a $1,000.
Hi I just wanted to add something about the 375 Ruger. I own both the African and the Alaskan and to me the felt recoil is sharper in the African. I think the Alaskan's houge stock helps to absorb some of the recoil, it also probably has something to do with the recoil pad being thicker than the African's and it is softer. I find that the African fits me better however which is why the Alaskan is in the EE. If it was me travelling to Africa with only one gun it would probable be my 375 H&H (unless you can get th PH to order some ammo for you in advance, I have heard that some who used the ruger round have done this)
For Sale: H&R single shot rifle in .470 Nitro Express. Mint condition, comes with 19 rounds of Hornady factory ammo and one once-fired piece of brass. Equipped with BSA 4-14X AO scope, recoil pad, mercury recoil-reducer, NCStar bipod, ATI synthetic pistol-grip stock, no-name muzzle brake, combination laser/flashlight and many other extras. Best offer.
Serious inquiries only.
Serious inquiries only.
To the OP, if you're wanting to think about recoil of some medium-big bores I'd recommend some 3 inch magnum slugs out of a non semi-auto 12 ga. I find my 375 kicks a little less than the old cooey single shot with a heavy slug. A 30-06 has some kick to it, but these guns are in a different league.
You said you were a bigger guy, so you should be able to take the recoil. Keep in mind one of the lines of reasoning with this is that smaller guys "roll" with the recoil and their movement absorbs it, whereas bigger guys often "fight" the recoil, or take it head on, making their body absorb the recoil (ouch).
Take a look at the Chuck Hawks recoil table to get an idea of the recoil in average hunting rifles. Yes, perception can be different than the numbers, and they are based on "average hunting rifle weights" which might not be accurate in everyone's mind its a good starting point.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The .308 has about 18 lbs of recoil. The .30-06 has about 20 lbs. The .375 has 37 lbs, so about double what you are used to. The .458 win has 62 lbs so about triple what you are used to.
Yes there are lighter loads available for all of these rifles, but you're not going to want to be using powder puff loads here. Any dangerous game file will make a fine bear rifle, or will hold its resale value well enough that you will be able to sell it and buy a bear rifle if it doesn't meet your specs once you're done with it.
Also, some people will tell you the recoil from the big guns being discussed is more of a push than a kick... It's all about perception and a properly fit gun. The big boomers will give you a pretty serious "push" or "kick" no matter how you break it down.
You said you were a bigger guy, so you should be able to take the recoil. Keep in mind one of the lines of reasoning with this is that smaller guys "roll" with the recoil and their movement absorbs it, whereas bigger guys often "fight" the recoil, or take it head on, making their body absorb the recoil (ouch).
Take a look at the Chuck Hawks recoil table to get an idea of the recoil in average hunting rifles. Yes, perception can be different than the numbers, and they are based on "average hunting rifle weights" which might not be accurate in everyone's mind its a good starting point.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The .308 has about 18 lbs of recoil. The .30-06 has about 20 lbs. The .375 has 37 lbs, so about double what you are used to. The .458 win has 62 lbs so about triple what you are used to.
Yes there are lighter loads available for all of these rifles, but you're not going to want to be using powder puff loads here. Any dangerous game file will make a fine bear rifle, or will hold its resale value well enough that you will be able to sell it and buy a bear rifle if it doesn't meet your specs once you're done with it.
Also, some people will tell you the recoil from the big guns being discussed is more of a push than a kick... It's all about perception and a properly fit gun. The big boomers will give you a pretty serious "push" or "kick" no matter how you break it down.
Thousands of people have shot 375s, 450s, 416s and on and on - I have never heard of anyone being seriously hurt or incapacitated by the rifle. Maybe the odd shoulder dislocation or detached retina.... but nothing major.
Recoil really is a mind game ...... you must get rid of the fear of any rifle or handgun hurting you by its recoil. Be it a 243 or 458 Lott.
If you dwell on recoil fears, the fears will take over your thoughts and you will never train properly to shoot.
Yes they all kick. Yes you may get a sore shoulder. But when you see that hole appear in the plate metal or that critter from your 470 NE solid - it sure is satisfying!
You can think about the recoil afterwards.
Recoil really is a mind game ...... you must get rid of the fear of any rifle or handgun hurting you by its recoil. Be it a 243 or 458 Lott.
If you dwell on recoil fears, the fears will take over your thoughts and you will never train properly to shoot.
Yes they all kick. Yes you may get a sore shoulder. But when you see that hole appear in the plate metal or that critter from your 470 NE solid - it sure is satisfying!
You can think about the recoil afterwards.
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Agreed, but the concern would be to develop a flinch when making the jump from .30-06 to 470 NE, or whatever it may be. Once you get a flinch it can be difficult to get rid of. Its not like you can avoid practice shooting to avoid developing a flinch when you're going to go to after some dangerous game.
You're right though, I've rarely heard of any injuries from shooting big guns.
You're right though, I've rarely heard of any injuries from shooting big guns.
Then what does one do to jump from a .22? Do you really need to make baby steps through every family of calibers and every weight and style of rifle up to the Nyati? Of course not.
Do not over think it. You want a big / medium bore - get one and have at it. If you start to flinch - start over and master the bugger.
Little kids around the world grow up shooting Enfields and Mausers in all sorts of calibers as they grow up. They dont have the luxury of pondering over tech charts to decide the perfect caliber and rifle weight.
Its just a piece of steel and wood and or plastic....
I have taught many children and young adults to shoot. If they have been reading gun magazines, they are terrifed of the impending destruction known as the "kick".
If they are comlpete novices - 9 times out of 10 they shoot and smile and laugh... big difference in how you approach it.
(BTW - make them wear the best ear protection - the boom is more offensive then the recoil to many...)
Do not over think it. You want a big / medium bore - get one and have at it. If you start to flinch - start over and master the bugger.
Little kids around the world grow up shooting Enfields and Mausers in all sorts of calibers as they grow up. They dont have the luxury of pondering over tech charts to decide the perfect caliber and rifle weight.
Its just a piece of steel and wood and or plastic....
I have taught many children and young adults to shoot. If they have been reading gun magazines, they are terrifed of the impending destruction known as the "kick".
If they are comlpete novices - 9 times out of 10 they shoot and smile and laugh... big difference in how you approach it.
(BTW - make them wear the best ear protection - the boom is more offensive then the recoil to many...)
About recoil:
I am not worried. I know for a fact that the gun can't hurt me and I've been target shooting for years. I was 7 years old when I started shooting .308 and my grandfather made sure to teach me how to avoid a flinch (by starting me off with air rifles, then .22 then up from there.)
When practicing, I depress the trigger so slowly that it is a total surprise when the the shot comes.
One question: To scope or not to scope?
I am not worried. I know for a fact that the gun can't hurt me and I've been target shooting for years. I was 7 years old when I started shooting .308 and my grandfather made sure to teach me how to avoid a flinch (by starting me off with air rifles, then .22 then up from there.)
When practicing, I depress the trigger so slowly that it is a total surprise when the the shot comes.
One question: To scope or not to scope?
lOl - there is a whole thread going on now here about a .375 and what glass to use. Check it out ----
My view is to scope with a low to medium variable with good light gathering for those dark evenings and mornings UNLESS it is a stopper gun then use irons (peeps preferably)
My view is to scope with a low to medium variable with good light gathering for those dark evenings and mornings UNLESS it is a stopper gun then use irons (peeps preferably)
I would scope it with a low power variable as nothing is faster to get on target as you only have one focal plane to deal with and are not trying to line up front and rear sights etc. You also have the advantage with 1X to 2.5 X of keeping both eyes open and on target which is an advantage when tracking a moving target. If it didn't work I don't think the military would be using optics on their rifles (ACOGs, ELCANs, etc.). Just my .02 cents worth
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
While in Africa, your rifle will be a general purpose hunting rig for smallish animals as well as large, and a scope will be useful. Typically ranges are short, and pose no problem for a good marksman, but I was surprised when I had to make a couple of longish shots on plains game. Had I chosen to shoot a baboon, the opportunity would have required a 250 yard shot, and prone was not an option due to the lay of the land. There isn't much to shoot at on a baboon, and some of the small antelope aren't much larger.
When using the rifle for bear work, irons might be a better choice, although that depends on your specific circumstances. How long would you be on the ground in bear country and at what time of year? Which style of sight do you prefer and with which style of sight do you shoot better at close range. A modern low power scope can be a wonder, but if you're caught in ice fog, freezing rain, or even driving rain, the advantages of glass are quickly lost.
Why do people choose non standard calibers such as .375 ruger and what not? I see many used rifles up for sale that seem perfect safe for that non standard caliber. I figure if I'm only going to have one bear/safari gun, I'd rather it be a standard caliber that I can get anywhere in the world and whose reloading characteristics are widely known. Or am I missing something? I mean I understand that a caliber developed in 1980 would have better ballistics than one that was developed in 1910, but it seems to be a head ache for that extra 400 fps.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Don't let Gatehouse hear you say the .375 Ruger is nonstandard! As far as he's concerned it is the standard, producing .375 H&H velocities (with light bullts anyway) in a standard length action, resulting in a lighter shorter rifle. Mind you my custom Brno 602 is about the same size and no slower to shoot. There is nothing at all wrong with the .375 H&H, and after 100 years it is still the medium bore all others are compared to.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
.375 Ruger and .375 H&H in the real world are absolutely ballistically identical, see Hodgdon's load data for each cartridge's respective top 300gr load:
.375 Ruger, 300gr bullet, 80.7gr H4350 2,660fps
.375 H&H, 300gr bullet, 81.5gr H4350 2,645fps
The attraction and reason for the Ruger is cost, the .375 Ruger can be chambered in a standard action (.30-06/.300 Win Mag length), which is cheaper than longer true magnum actions. .375 Ruger also enjoys theoretical advantages in case life, due to a more straight walled, sharper shouldered case. However again in real world performance, no difference, my .375 H&H is still consuming some brass that's been loaded a half dozen times, in fact I hunted Africa in October with brass that had five firings on it. In the end, the real reason was the usual; to sell more rifles. I'm not a detractor of innovation and anything new, and the .375 Ruger has some limited merits, but it's not for me. I also don't like giving up at least an extra round of magazine capacity for the same performance. That said, the .375 Ruger definitely works, there's nothing wrong with it as a cartridge.
.375 Ruger, 300gr bullet, 80.7gr H4350 2,660fps
.375 H&H, 300gr bullet, 81.5gr H4350 2,645fps
The attraction and reason for the Ruger is cost, the .375 Ruger can be chambered in a standard action (.30-06/.300 Win Mag length), which is cheaper than longer true magnum actions. .375 Ruger also enjoys theoretical advantages in case life, due to a more straight walled, sharper shouldered case. However again in real world performance, no difference, my .375 H&H is still consuming some brass that's been loaded a half dozen times, in fact I hunted Africa in October with brass that had five firings on it. In the end, the real reason was the usual; to sell more rifles. I'm not a detractor of innovation and anything new, and the .375 Ruger has some limited merits, but it's not for me. I also don't like giving up at least an extra round of magazine capacity for the same performance. That said, the .375 Ruger definitely works, there's nothing wrong with it as a cartridge.
