JDForBrkFst
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Roughly North Central AB
Wow, that is bad RJ. Either you have a bad machine, or I have a particularly good one.
RCBS Chargemaster
- Thread starter remington jim
- Start date
My CM lite isn't accurate at all, either.
I check every single throw on a RCBS M500, and 75% of throws are underthrown by 0.2-0.4m. Doesn't matter if it's h4350, varget, RL22/26, Retumbo. The only powders its +/-0.1gr with are super fine cfe223 and h110.
Only about 25% of my throws with the other powders are within 0.1gr or less.
I've moved it to different rooms, did the electrical tricks, did the straw trick, no improvement. And the lite can't be programmed/tweaked.
For the time being I set it to be 0.1gr less than I want, and trickle up on the beam scale. Slow as hell, but consistent for the precision cartridges.
I've all but convinced myself to go to a fx120/autotrickler, but was hoping to hear more on how the v3 handles N570. I just picked up a 300 PRC and am strongly leaning towards something with a lapua bolt face (338 lm improved, maybe 33xc), and have a healthy store of N570 on hand. The v2 apparently had a ton of issues with coarse powder, so I'm hesitant.
I check every single throw on a RCBS M500, and 75% of throws are underthrown by 0.2-0.4m. Doesn't matter if it's h4350, varget, RL22/26, Retumbo. The only powders its +/-0.1gr with are super fine cfe223 and h110.
Only about 25% of my throws with the other powders are within 0.1gr or less.
I've moved it to different rooms, did the electrical tricks, did the straw trick, no improvement. And the lite can't be programmed/tweaked.
For the time being I set it to be 0.1gr less than I want, and trickle up on the beam scale. Slow as hell, but consistent for the precision cartridges.
I've all but convinced myself to go to a fx120/autotrickler, but was hoping to hear more on how the v3 handles N570. I just picked up a 300 PRC and am strongly leaning towards something with a lapua bolt face (338 lm improved, maybe 33xc), and have a healthy store of N570 on hand. The v2 apparently had a ton of issues with coarse powder, so I'm hesitant.
Yea yours is NO better or worse -about the same as mine ! Mine Overthrows the loads ! My Brother has a V3 and it throws every thing very GOOD including the CORD wood size N570 powder !
Has any one heard of a V2.5 and OR used one ? RJ
Has any one heard of a V2.5 and OR used one ? RJ
303EppsFan
CGN Regular
- Location
- Almonte,Ontario
I use a Chargemaster and installed the drink straw which cut my overages, I may get 1-2 in 100 rounds loading 4350.
As to accuracy I check it frequently against my beam scale and it's always bang on. I leave mine turned on all the time and sitting in the same spot. I don't use fluorescent lights in the room and keep my cell phone away from it to prevent any electrical interference. I don't know that those cause issues, merely a precaution read on other threads regarding these.
As to accuracy I check it frequently against my beam scale and it's always bang on. I leave mine turned on all the time and sitting in the same spot. I don't use fluorescent lights in the room and keep my cell phone away from it to prevent any electrical interference. I don't know that those cause issues, merely a precaution read on other threads regarding these.
If you want perfect throws every time, it won't happen on these dispensers, no matter the brand. They are a cheap unit, and like all cheaper mas produced units, they vary, sometimes you will get a bad one, most times a decent one, sometimes a good one. Sometimes the issue is the environment, sometimes it isn't. If you buy one to speed things up, you won't be happy with them. I have a good one, but, it is .1 difference from my beam scale, however it is consistent, drift occurs, but, not often enough to bug me, I had an electronic scale for 20 yrs before I bought a dispenser, didn't use it for powder, but, understood the issues with them before buying a dispenser. I still use the Lee spoons and beam scale, for some powders, still takes about the same time frame either way. If I can, I use a Redding thrower for some powders, way faster.
Nothing is perfect. I have a V4 coming, see how it works out, I like the A&D scale, no beefs with it yet. Maybe I won't like it, maybe I will.
Nothing is perfect. I have a V4 coming, see how it works out, I like the A&D scale, no beefs with it yet. Maybe I won't like it, maybe I will.
All scales have their strengths and weaknesses that the consumer should understand.
First is the myth that beam scales are more accurate than digital scales... People often claim that beam scales do not drift or are not affected by atmospheric pressure changes and that is just not true... If your beam scale is not affected by pressure changes it is because it does not have the sensitivity to be affected... This is very much like a 1 decimal place digital scale... They are just not sensitive enough to detect the wind coming from your hand movement. There are balance beam scales out there that are affected by air pressure changes if you google the vintage Sartorius beams scales from before the digital revolution. These were made in Germany and were quite complicated by design.
This is a beam scale and it is sensitive enough to be affected by air flow.
Next is the load sensing technology being used... Most common in less expensive scales is the load cell. A load cell has a limited life expectancy and performance will gradually decay over time. Furthermore, they are susceptible to permanent damage when over loaded. If you are using a load cell scale, it will likely be most accurate when new but over time, the accuracy will gradually fade. The real challenge for you is in detecting when that occurs. Unless you have a better scale, you will not have the ability to detect the inaccuracy of the system. You will be chasing ghosts during load development because you will never really have consistency. Load cell scales are budget scales and you get budget performance.
A better load sensing system is called magnetic force reconstruction... Scales of this type run from mid range to high end. These scales are notorious for sensitivity to voltage fluctuations, warm up period and susceptibility to frequency interference from fluorescent lights, cordless phones and cell phones. Such scales are best used when connected to some sort of voltage stabilization system like a battery back up for a computer.
The best and most fault tolerant weighing system is the tuning fork system used by Vibra balances. These do not require warm up and are not affected by frequency interference.
As far as accuracy goes... a typical reloaders beam scale is only accurate to no better than about 0.4 grains. A 1 decimal place digital scale is about the same 0.4 grains accuracy. A decent 2 decimal place scale is accurate to no better than about 0.08 grains. If you get a good 3 decimal place scale in grains, you will then be able to produce loads to within 0.008 grains +-0.004 or within less than half a kernel of Varget. Guys often think they are more accurate than this, but that's because they don't have a $2,300 scale to test their loads against. I do and have done the testing.
Depending on how far you shoot and what your accuracy expectations are, you can decide what you really need.
If you have one of the low end scales and feel you are getting better velocity spreads than the load variance I described above, it is because you are not testing over a large enough sample size to find the flyers, or you are simply ignoring the shots that don't fit into your expectations.
If you are a long range shooter, you will be better off spending the cost of an automated scale on a more accurate digital scale and a set of Lee powder scoops or a mechanical thrower.
If most of your shooting is inside 300 yards, you might just as well get an RCBS powder thrower as the variance will be hard to detect on target if you don't have a match winning rifle.
If you are a serious long range precision shooter then this is the scale you want: https://www.scalesgalore.com/product/ViBRA-HT224R-2HT4S220122-Analytical-Laboratory-Prime-Balance-WITH-Internal-Calibration-220-g-x-01-mg-px49231.cfm?new_page=0
This is a link to the Canadian importer: https://vibracanada.com/laboratory.html
Prices in Canada: https://vibracanada.com/products.html
I have the same scale (as well as two friends in the area) but since we've had them for several years the model number has changed from HT220 to HT224. You will appreciate the internal calibration and the added cost is negligible. You'll likely cringe by the $2,300 price tag but its the last word in scale accuracy and scale error is effectively off the table.
Last edited:
All scales have their strengths and weaknesses that the consumer should understand.
First is the myth that beam scales are more accurate than digital scales... People often claim that beam scales do not drift or are not affected by atmospheric pressure changes and that is just not true... If your beam scale is not affected by pressure changes it is because it does not have the sensitivity to be affected... This is very much like a 1 decimal place digital scale... They are just not sensitive enough to detect the wind coming from your hand movement. There are balance beam scales out there that are affected by air pressure changes if you google the vintage Sartorius beams scales from before the digital revolution. These were made in Germany and were quite complicated by design.
This is a beam scale and it is sensitive enough to be affected by air flow.
Next is the load sensing technology being used... Most common in less expensive scales is the load cell. A load cell has a limited life expectancy and performance will gradually decay over time. Furthermore, they are susceptible to permanent damage when over loaded. If you are using a load cell scale, it will likely be most accurate when new but over time, the accuracy will gradually fade. The real challenge for you is in detecting when that occurs. Unless you have a better scale, you will not have the ability to detect the inaccuracy of the system. You will be chasing ghosts during load development because you will never really have consistency. Load cell scales are budget scales and you get budget performance.
A better load sensing system is called magnetic force reconstruction... Scales of this type run from mid range to high end. These scales are notorious for sensitivity to voltage fluctuations, warm up period and susceptibility to frequency interference from fluorescent lights, cordless phones and cell phones. Such scales are best used when connected to some sort of voltage stabilization system like a battery back up for a computer.
The best and most fault tolerant weighing system is the tuning fork system used by Vibra balances. These do not require warm up and are not affected by frequency interference.
As far as accuracy goes... a typical reloaders beam scale is only accurate to no better than about 0.4 grains. A 1 decimal place digital scale is about the same 0.4 grains accuracy. A decent 2 decimal place scale is accurate to no better than about 0.08 grains. If you get a good 3 decimal place scale in grains, you will then be able to produce loads to within 0.008 grains +-0.004 or within less than half a kernel of Varget. Guys often think they are more accurate than this, but that's because they don't have a $2,300 scale to test their loads against. I do and have done the testing.
Depending on how far you shoot and what your accuracy expectations are, you can decide what you really need.
If you have one of the low end scales and feel you are getting better velocity spreads than the load variance I described above, it is because you are not testing over a large enough sample size to find the flyers, or you are simply ignoring the shots that don't fit into your expectations.
If you are a long range shooter, you will be better off spending the cost of an automated scale on a more accurate digital scale and a set of Lee powder scoops or a mechanical thrower.
If most of your shooting is inside 300 yards, you might just as well get an RCBS powder thrower as the variance will be hard to detect on target if you don't have a match winning rifle.
If you are a serious long range precision shooter then this is the scale you want: https://www.scalesgalore.com/product/ViBRA-HT224R-2HT4S220122-Analytical-Laboratory-Prime-Balance-WITH-Internal-Calibration-220-g-x-01-mg-px49231.cfm?new_page=0
This is a link to the Canadian importer: https://vibracanada.com/laboratory.html
Prices in Canada: https://vibracanada.com/products.html
I have the same scale (as well as two friends in the area) but since we've had them for several years the model number has changed from HT220 to HT224. You will appreciate the internal calibration and the added cost is negligible. You'll likely cringe by the $2,300 price tag but its the last word in scale accuracy and scale error is effectively off the table.
I’m not an Fclass or LR bench guy, but chargemasters are more than adequate for PRS. Not saying I wouldn’t love a V4 or high end scale, but it’s not required. Find a decent accuracy node and your minor powder charge variance won’t matter.
A bit of tuning with a straw and follow the normal guide lines for use of an electric scale (like avoiding static and electronics) and you you will be golden.
Couldn't agree more!
Before shooters started using more accurate scales and understanding how tolerances stack, sure a guy could win using what they used in the old days.
Not likely the winners of the future will be using volumetric droppers but you are more than welcome to try.
Winners of the future do not mimic the practices of the past. They adapt and improve upon what they used in the past.
As for records that still stand today, you must be talking about low round count group sizes for bench rest. Such records are set by very good skilled shooters who shoot frequently and get lucky on occasion. The more they shoot, the more likely they are to set a record. I used to golf quite a lot and got two holes in one. I would not bet five dollars that I will live to do it again.
High round count scores like in F Class continue to improve every year, because they focus on the aggregate scores over more than a hundred rounds where flyers can hang you out to dry.
If you are not into competition, well sure an RCBS thrower will get er done. You don't even need the Chargemaster.
Put $250 automation cell on top of a $150 scale and your loads were weighed on a $150 scale... Or just buy a $400 scale.
I'm not saying you need a $2300 scale, but if you are going to spend Chargemaster money, you could get a better and more accurate scale for the cost of it, and that just might make you a better shooter. It wont hurt.
Last edited:
My load is sub .2 moa. Routinely shoots in the .1s, and has a couple of zeros to its credit. I think my Chargemaster is doing just fine. I’ll spend $2300 on continuing to learn the art of long range shooting, knowing that it isn’t my scale, but rather, it’s me.
Last edited:
So you shoot in the zeros at long range huh?
Sure you do.
Just like everyone else on the internet.
LOL
Next you'll be schooling us on the virtues of positive compensation as a means of justifying your velocity spreads.
Again, for you guys reading this thread who are not antagonists, I never said you need a $2300 scale to weigh your loads. You will simply get more accurate loads by spending your chargemaster dollars on a more accurate scale and forget about the automation. While automation is an attractive convenience, it will never be as accurate for the money as a similarly priced scale. The same goes for the FX120 with V4 or whatever else you want to substitute.
I use a $2300 scale to call BS on the bogus accuracy claims of crappy scales so frequently posted on the internet. The BSers don't seem to like that. The bigger the BSer the more aggressive they attack because truth pops their fantasy bubble.
Last edited:
Dude. You’re the guy who thinks a bullet’s centre of mass can orbit the line of trajectory in a radial corkscrew pattern. Don’t for one second think you can talk to me about what I shoot and don’t shoot at long range.
What velocity spreads?
What velocity spreads?
You would have won the Sporter Rifle Grand Aggregate at the 2021 National Benchrest Shooters Association (NBRSA) Nationals. Beating the winning aggregate of .2174” with that load!
Pretty impressive stuff!
The load may very well have, but I doubt I would, which is why I’ll keep the loading equipment as is, and spend the money on learning to shoot it.
What do you consider “bogus accuracy claims” with loads loaded with Charge Masters?
