RDS on Pistols

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wicked_police

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After the TDI Kris pistol thread got a little derailed, I was on the range today so thought I'd check some things out.

I shot a course of fire with my two Gen4 G17's.

One has Ameriglo Defoor sights, and a minus connector installed. It's also at 6800+ rounds.

The other one has a Aimpoint Micro H-1 installed with the Aimpoint mount that replaces the rear sight. It has the regular unmarked connector (which gives a noticeably heavier trigger), and only has 2300+ rounds through it.


Stage 1 @ 25m, shot from 4 different positions. (Time wasn't an issue for the stages, but I included the times it took for each stage just for comparison)

RDS gun
img6175j.jpg

Not a great group, pulled a few, but not too bad.

Irons gun
img6174u.jpg

I have to say this isn't typical of my 25m shooting. I was on the range doing drills the previous 3+ hours, both pistol and carbine, so lack of concentration and fatigue are probably causes. And I was rushing my shots a little. Still, the difference in grouping is very noticeable.

RDS - score 70/70 with 6x, in 85 seconds
IRON - score 70/70 with 2x, in 80 seconds



Stage 2 @ 15m, 4 shots standing and 4 shots kneeling. Times were similar, but the group difference is again noticeable.

RDS gun
img6177p.jpg

Again, pulled a few shots.

Irons gun
img6176r.jpg

Another atypical group for me...

RDS - score 40/40 with 4x, in 11 seconds
IRON - score 40/40 with x, in 10 seconds



Stage 3 @7m. Four strings of 2 shots.

RDS gun
img6179ou.jpg

Times were similar, just a little slower with the RDS though, both for the first shot and split times. But not a huge difference.

Irons gun
img6178q.jpg


RDS - score 40/40 with 4x, in 1.6 to 1.7 seconds
IRON - score 40/40 with 6x, in 1.5 to 1.6 seconds



Stage 4 @ 5m, 2 rounds to center mass, 1 round to head.

RDS gun
img6181z.jpg


Irons gun
img6180g.jpg


The RDS is a little slower at this point, both out of the holster, and for splits, but almost a full second. Accuracy is similar, but irons are showing the advantage at closer distances.

RDS - score 60/60 with 6x, in 3.5 seconds
IRON - score 60/60 with 6x, in 2.6 seconds



Stage 5 @ 3m. 4 rounds SHO, 4 rounds WHO

RDS gun
img6183v.jpg


Irons gun
img6182.jpg


Groups are essentially the same size, but the RDS gun is 4 seconds slower.

RDS - score 40/40 with 8x, in 11.5 seconds
IRON - score 40/40 with 5x, in 7.5 seconds



The center light green area of the target is 8" x 12". I can usually shoot 4-6" groups at 25m no problems, but both guns were a little bigger than that. Both guns scored 250/250 points. The RDS gun had 28x count, irons gun had 20x count. The difference was mostly at the further distances.

This was a very informal and unscientific comparison. But I used a pretty simple course of fire that I've shot hundreds of times, so I know what I'm usually capable of. I've never done a side by side shoot with the 2 guns before, so this was a bit of a test for me as well to see if what others have experienced would be the same for me. And it was. The only thing I'll change next time I do more drills with the guns is the connector in the RDS gun. The trigger was definitely heavier, and different feeling.

And just like misanthropist said, the RDS guns are more accurate at distance, but in close, the speed of irons shows an advantage.
 
My employer would laugh if I asked for a milled slide, RMR, and suppressor sights....

They aren't the most progressive or forward thinking company out there.


Here are the guns.

img6186q.jpg
 
Well first off its obvious you were limp wristing the guns. Man up, quit drinking booster juice, put on a clean pair of manties and get the sand out of your mangina. Every good Christian soldier knows RDS sights are bequeathed by Jesus himself and are the only tool needed in the toolbox besides an AK.

Ok seriously now. First off good shooting. Next, I am not convinced that RDS setup is a good way to make judgements. The offset to the bore is huge. Much greater than a milled slide would give you. Also until you've put 10,000 dedicated training rounds downrange with it I wouldn't call your results conclusive. Its obvious you are a great shooter with irons I think that with a bit more time behind an RDS pistol your score would be the same up close.
 
This is decent shooting....

photojs.jpg


25m, standing unsupported with the Gen4, Defoor sights.

The groups I shot yesterday were ok, but definitely not what I can usually do.
 
The Aimpoint setup isn't the most ideal, but still not bad.

I'd love to try a G17 with an RMR-type optic milled into the slide, with higher irons. I think the transition to finding the dot would be a lot faster.
 
Accuracy and speed is similar at 15m and further. In fact, the 5946 might even hold a small edge in accuracy, I haven't shot it much except to do the pistol quals with it every month or 2.

Closer than 15m, the accuracy is essentially the same, but the results are achieved faster with the Glock. Or, if I try to run the 5946 as fast as the Glock, it's not quite as accurate. And that's just down to a 5lb trigger vs a 10lb trigger.
 
WP, wait till you're over 50 years old and repeat the test! At my age the advantage to the RDS is that I can actually see the dot, iron's not so much (you know that's true, you've seen me shoot!).
 
BJP said:
WP, wait till you're over 50 years old and repeat the test! At my age the advantage to the RDS is that I can actually see the dot, iron's not so much (you know that's true, you've seen me shoot!).
Click to expand...

Welcome to the rust years. With a slight cataract in my dominant eye shooting at 25 meters is, well, exciting. Shooting glasses gives me the sights or the target but never both.:D

A Red dot on the CX4 Storm evens things out quickly.

WP will an M&P run with the Glock with the Apex Competition Kit?

Take Care

Bob
 
I don't see why not...

But I don't have mine any more. I got rid of it not long after getting it. I shoot my Glocks a lot more, and have more invested into them, so didn't see the point of having the M&P if I was never going to shoot it.
 
I'm confused, you show a Glock yet these groups appear to be from a 870?

Haven't felt the urge to get onto the RDS wagon yet. I would like to compare times in low light conditions, they may have an edge there.
 
Bastard!

They have internet over there?? :p


A guy on the Hack class ran a G19 with a milled RMR for the night portion. It worked really well in low light.
 
I think the handgun RDS vs Irons debate is fascinating, but I'm coming to the realization that the RDS system, on pistols anyway, is best used by expert level shooters. By this I mean, guys who have many thousands of rounds through, and are proficient with, their iron sights.

I can see a time when RDS's become very popular on handguns.

If the RDS fails, it could cause serious problems for users (CCW holders, etc) that only train with the RDS system, which is what happens with a lot of rifle shooters now. It's going to add a whole new dynamic to the way courses are taught and the drills that are used.
 
The biggest 'problem' and difference between an RDS on a pistol vs a carbine, is the slide-mounted dot moves quickly and violently every time the gun is fired. This makes it impossible to keep the dot on the target between shots, like you can on a carbine, or an open race-gun that has the RDS mounted to the frame.

Right now though, there's no real option for a frame-mounted RDS on a 'fighting' pistol, or gun meant for concealed carry.


Clob, a red dot can be used by newer shooters as well. They'll typically achieve better results sooner than with iron sights, much like a red rot on a carbine. This of course would be for slower, aimed fire.
 
Gentlemen:

I first became aware of the practical application of red dots on fighting pistols throught the Warrior Talk Forum and One Source Tactical.

Through my reading and research, I have found that Gabe Suarez (owner of WT forums), has some interesting ideas with regards to combative style pistol shooting. In particular was the application of minie red dot sights and handguns.

While I am not sure he was the first, one of the first pistols that I saw that skillfully combined a mini-red-dot and a handgun was the following G34 which I have lusted after since:

glock_34_h-520x388.jpg


Since that time, the idea has been fruther refined to include taller supressor style sights, so that we now have the successful application of dule, Cowitnessing sighting systems on a pistol. To look something like this:

TSDT2_1.jpg


To my way of thinking there is a real practical application here, but the only way to tell it to either get one (a pricey options), or mock one up in a very similar fashion (as Wicked_police has). To my way of thinking the H-1 is simply to large for the application, and I am on the trail of a similar mount but with an RMR-01 optic.

With that being said, is there anyone in Canada that is capable of doing similar work? Armco comes to mind, but I think there project plate is pretty full at this time.

Do you gents have any futher thoughts to add here??

I must say this is a very intersting thread, and I look forward to see what practical conclutions we can come to, that will be born out by field/range testing.

regards and all the best

AbH
 
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AbH, great post, lots of information that I've previously left out.

I'd really like to get a slide like the ones in your post to try out, to see what the differences are between the Micro and RMR-style optics.
 
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