RE: number of magazines req'd for Standard IPSC Competition vs Black Badge

NRA4Life

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RE: number of magazines req'd for Standard IPSC Competition vs Black Badge

Hi All,

I'm new to the shooting sports in Canada, and although I've taken comprehensive practical shooting courses in the USA, I do not yet have my IPSC Black Badge... I hope to be competing in Standard Class ASAP.

I have noticed that Black Badge courses stipulate a requirement for the participants to have at least 4 magazines for their weapon; however, I've read elsewhere that courses of fire are rarely more than 20 rounds... My questions are:

A) Is the possession of 4 magazines an absolute requirement for Black Badge certification? (Could I make due with only 2, since the magazines for my chosen gun [H&K P7] are rare and expensive when available at all)

B) Do courses of fire in competition ever require as many as 40 rounds to be expended (would I ever need 4 magazines to complete a single stage)?

C) Is it legal to export pistol magazines from the USA without a license from the Department of State? (I know that firearms and some parts like gun barrels require licenses; but, I can't find specific regulations for low-capacity magazines) If so, please cite your sources so that I can educate potential US-sellers...
 
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Quest A-B: well for the mags, u would need at least 4 I would say. Some ipsc course of fire (long courses) are 32 rounds min depending if u drop some points or miss on steel and stuff.

Quest C: u can buy 10 round mags from approved exporters (not over the 100$ mark as per export laws)
If u purchase high cap mags, they would have to be modified to hold no more then 10 rounds before entry into canada.
 
You will need minimum of 4 magazines, and 4 pouches on your belt.
I will have minimum 5. CoF may consist of upto max 32 rounds, which under
our Canadian law stipulates 4 mags to shoot.
On some CoF I have seen people-me included going through more then 4 mags
 
if youve been shooting and already a member of IPSC/USPSA in the states, maybe you can do away with the BB. In my case, I was already a lifetime member of IPSC/PPSA and IROA before I came to Canada.
 
The P7 is a tough choice for IPSC, you'd almost be cheaper to buy an entire production rig for what you'll have to spend in mags.
 
Importing P7 Magazines USA vs. Europe

PharoH said:
Quest A-B: well for the mags, u would need at least 4 I would say. Some ipsc course of fire (long courses) are 32 rounds min depending if u drop some points or miss on steel and stuff.

Quest C: u can buy 10 round mags from approved exporters (not over the 100$ mark as per export laws)
If u purchase high cap mags, they would have to be modified to hold no more then 10 rounds before entry into canada.
Click to expand...

Thanks PharoH... (and PeterPan)

RE 'C': That's the problem... P7 Magazines mostly run > $100 apiece! :-/ and they're rarer than hen's-teeth in Canada to boot. I'd almost be further ahead buying a second P7, just for the magazines, since the guns themselves are readily available for sale (6 different sellers popped up in a week after I mentioned my interest in acquiring one) and they usually came with 2-mags from the factory... I'm currently trying to solicit spare-mag purchases; but, I'm not holding out much hope.

On one side, the earlier M8 variant only accommodates 8rnds/mag [and hence easier to import]; but, I'd still have to buy more mags to make up for the reduction in capacity...

I wonder if importing magazines directly from Europe would be any easier?

I love the P7, :rockOn: that's why I want to shoot it---even if it has to be Minor. If I could locate a P7 M10, I could shoot Major, too!
 
BlackBadge credit?

ffgats said:
If you've been shooting and already a member of IPSC/USPSA in the states, maybe you can do away with the BB. In my case, I was already a lifetime member of IPSC/PPSA and IROA before I came to Canada.
Click to expand...

The way the rules are written on the IPSC Canada page, I'm not too hopeful that I'd be able to negotiate international accreditation; but, I suppose it's worth a try...

I still have a letter of recommendation from my Practical Shooting instructor, #### Barber, and the quality of the handgun courses at ESI are well-known. The CFC would have nothing to do with it, though; so, I just challenged the exam and scored 100% & 98% on my Restricted PAL tests. I got screwed by the politicos in-power while I was out-of-country, because I *should* have qualified for 12(6) but I was (deliberately?) misinformed and therefore ignorant of my new obligations on my return (narrowly escaping prosecution)... but that's water-under-the-bridge.

I was not involved in the competitive shooting sports in the USA; so, I don't have a membership history there; however, I am very interested in learning how you may have negotiated to eschew the BlackBadge upon your immigration to Canada...
 
I know, I know...

PH Racing said:
The P7 is a tough choice for IPSC, you'd almost be cheaper to buy an entire production rig for what you'll have to spend in mags.
Click to expand...

My second choice would be to shoot a .40 Browning HP (SFS if I could find one!), and I know I could buy two :HR: for the price of one P7-M13 and still have cash left over for tuning and ammo---it's an internal struggle I have with my Scots-blood---but, I love the P7!

Unfortunately, I'm not a big fan of Double-Action pistols (aside from revolvers), so, I'm stuck for now, I guess...

Right now I have a choice between two near-mint P7s, both for $1500.00 each including 2 factory mags, one is an M8 (single stack) bundled with a slow Police drop-holster, and the other is an M13 (double stack) with all the factory packaging... M8 mags are available from various sources in the USA for ~$75ea, but none will export to Canada, and M10/M13 magazines are running around $130ea on GunsAmerica, and similarly, aren't available for export... :-(
 
I say you will need minimum 5 magazines. It is better to have more, because magazines do break, as we drop them on concrete floor and gravel all the time. IPSC is very dynamic sport, so you wan't to have options where it is better to reload, eg whlile moving between positions and that may require to reload after 6 rounds or you'll be reloading while standing, hence losing a lot of time.
That said, if you don't care about competition, you might be fine with 4 magazines for your gun, but also note that price of equipment is nothing compared to the ammo, match fees and travel expenses.
Also, I doubt you can get away from taking Black Badge. There is a liability issue and BB course is a way for organization to protect from potentially possible accidents. It is a good course anyways and you should take it.
 
BTW, if you are going to buy a new gun for IPSC, you better do your research and NOT select the gun based on your emotional attachments to particular model or vendor. Like Pat said, you can buy a cheaper gun and have much much better availability of the spare parts and magazines. This is very important for IPSC.
 
I hear you...

euxx said:
BTW, if you are going to buy a new gun for IPSC, you better do your research and NOT select the gun based on your emotional attachments to particular model or vendor. Like Pat said, you can buy a cheaper gun and have much much better availability of the spare parts and magazines. This is very important for IPSC.
Click to expand...

The prospect of getting a 9mm conversion for a .40 BHP, and shooting it Major has a distinct appeal in spite of my HK love-affair... I'm just saddened by empty-space in a grip-frame. :(
 
5-6 mags is the golden number. It isn't so much that you'll ever encounter a need for that capacity, but as you move through a Course of Fire, more mags will allow you to have a fresh mag in the pistol more often.

One of the worst tactical errors, and easiest to prevent, is running a pistol to slide-lock, and having to change mags "flat footed" with unshot targets in front of you. If you start with 11 rounds, and you plan mag changes while you're on the move, your run will be much smoother.

I've blown through a long Course, and found that I had gone through 5 mags by the end, but all the mags on the ground had 2-4 rounds left in them each.
 
NRA4Life said:
The way the rules are written on the IPSC Canada page, I'm not too hopeful that I'd be able to negotiate international accreditation; but, I suppose it's worth a try...

I still have a letter of recommendation from my Practical Shooting instructor, #### Barber, and the quality of the handgun courses at ESI are well-known. The CFC would have nothing to do with it, though; so, I just challenged the exam and scored 100% & 98% on my Restricted PAL tests. I got screwed by the politicos in-power while I was out-of-country, because I *should* have qualified for 12(6) but I was (deliberately?) misinformed and therefore ignorant of my new obligations on my return (narrowly escaping prosecution)... but that's water-under-the-bridge.

I was not involved in the competitive shooting sports in the USA; so, I don't have a membership history there; however, I am very interested in learning how you may have negotiated to eschew the BlackBadge upon your immigration to Canada...
Click to expand...

AS I mentioned earlier, I was already a member of IPSC, and if I remember it correctly, you can use your membership to shoot any SANCTIONED IPSC MATCH INTERNATIONALLY. regardless of your regional affiliation.
 
There's times because of a stages layout it may be advantageous to fire two rounds out if a mag and immediately change because you night need 9 at the next port. There was a stage at last years Kingston match where there was two targets at the start, then a bank of four, another bank of four, another bank of four and then the last position had two targets. To shoot it efficiently you needed 5 mags and a spare just in case.
As far as the BB course goes, a visitor coming to shoot from another country does not need a BB to compete. If you are becoming a member of IPSC Ontario/Canada you will need to take a BB course. Ffgats, expect a call from your friendly local BB coordinator.... :D
 
Oh, is this the part where i jump in with contact info Pat?:)
The email you need is ipscbbcoord@rogers.com and we can set something up.
 
Excellent advice for rookies

sulisa said:
One of the worst tactical errors, and easiest to prevent, is running a pistol to slide-lock, and having to change mags "flat footed" with unshot targets in front of you. If you start with 11 rounds, and you plan mag changes while you're on the move, your run will be much smoother.
Click to expand...

"The loneliest sound in the world (and possibly the last you'll ever hear) is your hammer falling on an empty chamber..." ---Tony Pagni

That stuck with me. :)
 
NRA4Life said:
Hi All,

I'm new to the shooting sports in Canada, and although I've taken comprehensive practical shooting courses in the USA, I do not yet have my IPSC Black Badge... I hope to be competing in Standard Class ASAP.

I have noticed that Black Badge courses stipulate a requirement for the participants to have at least 4 magazines for their weapon; however, I've read elsewhere that courses of fire are rarely more than 20 rounds... My questions are:

A) Is the possession of 4 magazines an absolute requirement for Black Badge certification? (Could I make due with only 2, since the magazines for my chosen gun [H&K P7] are rare and expensive when available at all)

B) Do courses of fire in competition ever require as many as 40 rounds to be expended (would I ever need 4 magazines to complete a single stage)?

C) Is it legal to export pistol magazines from the USA without a license from the Department of State? (I know that firearms and some parts like gun barrels require licenses; but, I can't find specific regulations for low-capacity magazines) If so, please cite your sources so that I can educate potential US-sellers...
Click to expand...

A)I took my BB with my IDPA gear. 2 mags on the belt and 1 in the gun. Unless the BB instructor does things a lot differently where you live this is plently. You will be doing a series of basic shooting drills and tests not running a Long CoF. ;)

B)For actual competition I run 4 on my belt and one in the gun. 50 rounds should get you through a 32round CoF. I have seen guys run 5 and 6 mags on their belt but if I tried that my pants would fall down :eek:

C)No issues ordering mags up to 10rounds. They breeeze through the border like excrement thru a gander. :D

John
 
Expect to hear from me shortly... :)

mrclean said:
Oh, is this the part where i jump in with contact info Pat?:)
The email you need is ipscbbcoord@rogers.com and we can set something up.
Click to expand...

I've been trying to get into a local BB course for the better part of 18 months; but, I'm virtually gunless at the moment (as I kick the queens out of my safe)... The only functional pistol not up for grabs or already sold is a CZ-27 that I really like, chambered for .32ACP.
 
Kindly, more information, please...

John in B.C. said:
A)I took my BB with my IDPA gear. 2 mags on the belt and 1 in the gun. Unless the BB instructor does things a lot differently where you live this is plently. You will be doing a series of basic shooting drills and tests not running a Long CoF. ;)

B)For actual competition I run 4 on my belt and one in the gun. 50 rounds should get you through a 32round CoF. I have seen guys run 5 and 6 mags on their belt but if I tried that my pants would fall down :eek:

C)No issues ordering mags up to 10rounds. They breeeze through the border like excrement thru a gander. :D

John
Click to expand...

A) I expected as much; but, I wasn't sure if the policy was upheld by martinets

B) That seems reasonable. I recommend trying a kilt (to keep your pants from falling down) I may even compete in one!

C) Will you please cite regulations or expound upon your experience with importing low-cap magazines from the USA (or elsewhere)? All the magazine retailers I've found online so far have refused to ship to me after I inquired...
 
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