RE: number of magazines req'd for Standard IPSC Competition vs Black Badge

You are also going to have to get your head around the idea that magazines are not diamonds - they are consumable and replaceable, just like ammunition - and you are also going to have to get your head around the idea that you are going to need to drop your magazines on the deck, whether it be grass, gravel, mud, plywood, steel, or concrete.

In my opinion, due to various factors, not the least of which is magazine cost and in-availability, the obsolete and out-of-production HK P7 is a really bad choice for IPSC.
 
Digression: P7 vs. 1911 & BHP as IPSC Standard platform

You are also going to have to get your head around the idea that magazines are not diamonds - they are consumable and replaceable, just like ammunition - and you are also going to have to get your head around the idea that you are going to need to drop your magazines on the deck, whether it be grass, gravel, mud, plywood, steel, or concrete.

Yes, indeed... I admit I don't have a realistic perspective on how 'consumable' magazines are under continuous competitive use.

In my opinion, due to various factors, not the least of which is magazine cost and in-availability, the obsolete and out-of-production HK P7 is a really bad choice for IPSC.

I am curious nonetheless about the basis for your opinion of the P7 platform as 'obsolete'... The 1911 and BHP are both more venerable platforms with well-known, if minor and correctable, faults. I see the P7 design as having some advantages over those ruggedly enduring Browning masterpieces; but, continuing production is sadly not one of them...
 
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."*

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsolete

1ob·so·lete adj \ˌäb-sə-ˈlēt, ˈäb-sə-ˌ\

Definition of OBSOLETE

1
a : no longer in use or no longer useful <an obsolete word> b : of a kind or style no longer current : old-fashioned <an obsolete technology>

2
of a plant or animal part : indistinct or imperfect as compared with a corresponding part in related organisms : vestigial

— ob·so·lete·ly adverb
— ob·so·lete·ness noun
See obsolete defined for English-language learners »
See obsolete defined for kids »

Examples of OBSOLETE

1. The system was made obsolete by their invention.
2. <I was told my old printer is obsolete and I can't get replacement parts.>
3. It may not be welcome news in her home state of Pennsylvania, but chemist Cynthia Kuper could help make steel obsolete. Experimenting with carbon nanotubes, structures a few atoms wide but 100 times stronger and much lighter than steel, Kuper calls her work an “amusement park discovery.” —Joanna Chung, Newsweek, 23 Sept. 2002
4. He exercised a right so rare, at this the ###-end of the century, as to be practically obsolete. The most fundamental right of all. The right to be the good guy. —Zadie Smith, White Teeth, 2000
5. I never had parents, really. My mom was gone, my dad was at work or with his girlfriends, we had baby-sitters. My parents were obsolete. —Jonathan Kozol, Voices From the Future, 1993
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Origin of OBSOLETE

Latin obsoletus, from past participle of obsolescere to grow old, become disused, perhaps from ob- toward + solēre to be accustomed
First Known Use: 1579

Related to OBSOLETE

Synonyms: antiquated, archaic, dated, démodé, demoded, fossilized, kaput (also kaputt), medieval (also mediaeval), moribund, mossy, moth-eaten, neolithic, Noachian, outdated, outmoded, out-of-date, outworn, passé, prehistoric (also prehistorical), rusty, Stone Age, superannuated
Related Words: aging (or ageing), obsolescent; discarded, disused, inoperable, unusable, unworkable, useless; dead, defunct, expired, extinct, vanished; dormant, fallow, free, idle, inactive, inert, inoperative, latent; ancient, antediluvian, antique, dateless, fusty, musty, old; oldfangled, old-fashioned, old-time, retro, vintage; aged, age-old, hoary, venerable; atavistic, bygone, erstwhile, former, historic, historical, late, old-world, past
Near Antonyms: contemporary, current, mod, modern, new, newfangled, new-fashioned, present-day, recent, ultramodern, up-to-date, up-to-the-minute; fresh; modernized, refurbished, remodeled, renewed; functional, operable, operational, workable; active, alive, busy, employed, functioning, operating, operative
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See Synonym Discussion at old

Rhymes with OBSOLETE

aquavit, at one's feet, balance sheet, biathlete, bittersweet, booster seat, bucket seat, catbird seat, cellulite, cookie sheet, corps d'elite, countryseat, county seat, crystal pleat, decathlete, drag one's feet, driver's seat, easy street, exegete, incomplete, indiscreet, latent heat, letter sheet, lorikeet, make ends meet, marguerite, Masorete, meadowsweet, meet and greet, miss a beat, Nayarit, off one's feet, on one's feet, on the street, overeat, overheat, Paraclete, parakeet, pentathlete, prickly heat, rumble seat, saddle seat, scandal sheet, self-conceit, semisweet, shredded wheat, sliding seat, spirochete, superheat, to one's feet, triathlete, trick or treat, two-way street, undertreat, up one's street, winding-sheet, window seat
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aquavit, at one's feet, balance sheet, biathlete, bittersweet, booster seat, bucket seat, catbird seat, cellulite, cookie sheet, corps d'e...
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<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsolete>

* Inigo Montoya, speaking to Vizzini, in the motion picture The Princess Bride (1987)
 
I was hoping to hear and benefit from some of your opinions...

Honestly, I was not trolling... I'm genuinely interested, Wendell.

I am left to presume that you are basing your assessment of the P7, for the purposes of IPSC, principally on the fact that the weapon system [including the .40S&W P7-M10] is out-of-production and hence parts and equipment are too costly and scarce to reliably support a sustained competitive season. Am I right?

Suppose money and supply were not an object... How would you evaluate the P7 platform then? Granted, it may not be pretty; but, it's a very fast (intuitive auto-cocking) single-action semi-auto, with a fixed polygonal barrel and crisp factory trigger. From my admittedly ignorant perspective I ask "What's not to love?"

I'm going to open a new thread to discuss the merits of the primary weapon platforms being used in the IPSC Standard Class... I would be happy if you contributed to it.

P.S. I love that quote from The Princess Bride BTW!
 
IIRC, P7s are 'gas operated' and get VERY hot when subjected to high round count COFs. They weren't designed for that kind of use.
 
IPSC is a specialized application. The firearm that might be well suited to a often carried/rarely shot law enforcement application does not necessarily triumph in a competition that uses a shot timer and 32 round courses of fire.

What's not to love about a P7? It would be easier to answer the question, "What is there to love?"

Hmmm...

A short sight radius, a slow two-handed magazine release, a smaller than ten magazine capacity, a narrow magazine well, a disassembly button that can be accidentally activated during an immediate action drill, and the huge issues associated with relative rarity and for-a-good-reason obsolescence...

IIRC, P7s are 'gas operated' and get VERY hot when subjected to high round count COFs. They weren't designed for that kind of use.

I've burnt my hand after shooting two magazines, or only 18 rounds. I dunno, Maybe a GSG9-wannabe P7 driver should wear gloves.

You can use a P7 for IPSC if you want to, but please don't delude yourself into thinking that the P7 is somehow better than any current production service pistol. Because it isn't.
 
I'd hazard a guess NRA4LIFE is from Sault Ste. Marie, those guys love their P7M8s and shoot a decent IPSC match... a newbie shooter scores very well with the P7 because it forces a good grip with that crazy safety. So, little bit slower reload, and more As than you ever got before with your Glock...
 
I appreciate your candid comments, Thanks!

A short sight radius, a slow two-handed magazine release, a smaller than ten magazine capacity, a narrow magazine well, a disassembly button that can be accidentally activated during an immediate action drill, and the huge issues associated with relative rarity and for-a-good-reason obsolescence...

AFAIK, only the P7/PSP (first generation of the platform) has a European-style magazine release... The P7-M8, P7-M13, and [.40S&W] P7-M10 (the latter two having 10+ magazines) all have North American-style drop-free mag-releases---perhaps I've been mislead. Those same models also have a heat-sheild to mitigate the finger-burn flaw of the original PSP.

Thanks, again. I value the opinions of seasoned veterans of the sport like yourself---I will doubtless need more sage advice if I am to become a serious contender.
 
I'd hazard a guess NRA4LIFE is from Sault Ste. Marie, those guys love their P7M8s and shoot a decent IPSC match... a newbie shooter scores very well with the P7 because it forces a good grip with that crazy safety. So, little bit slower reload, and more As than you ever got before with your Glock...

That's exactly what I was thinking, too; but, I have a line on a P7-M13, and I'm not from the Sault...:onCrack: I used to like Glocks; but, I've since recovered. :slap:
 
10 rnd mags are allowed t enter Canada, the problem lies with US export laws & ITAR, if the Manufacturer is not approved by the state dept the part can't be exported.
 
I'm a big fan of the H&K P7 series of pistols, and had a P7M8.
The mag release on the M8 / M13 is the precursor to the one used on the USP and P30 series of pistols.
While those pistols make great duty guns and are decent choices for Production Division, they are not built for the 'race' that Standard and Open Divisions in IPSC present.

Personally, I believe the P7series should be allowed in production, but whatever...
If you are set on running a H&K, I'd look at going with a Custom Sport or a P30 in Production, or maybe a H&K45 or .40s&w Elite in Standard.
 
I'm a big fan of the H&K P7 series of pistols, and had a P7M8.

While those pistols make great duty guns and are decent choices for Production Division, they are not built for the 'race' that Standard and Open Divisions in IPSC present.

Personally, I believe the P7series should be allowed in production, but whatever...

I would certainly rather shoot a P7-M13 in Production Class; but, the rules-lawyering classifies it as a 'single-action' and hence disqualified. Maybe I'll just compete for myself and not the trophies by running the game straight-up instead of engaging in the equipment-race... I think I would feel a lot better putting in a solid CoF using a "stock" pistol than a mediocre run with a purpose-built hole-puncher.
 
I hear you... and I admit I was being flippant.


I still really like the Glock Perfection; but, owning one in this country [with its ridiculous mag-cap laws] is a waste of resources... I cut my proverbial practical shooting teeth on a Glock 17, and I still love them, really; but, as I've said before, I just can't stomach a grip-frame that is only half-full... It's a disgrace to the product of extraordinary Austrian innovative pistol engineering---I wouldn't deign to feed such glorious warriors half-helpings at the firing line.

To me, the Heckler & Koch P7 is the kissing-cousin to the Glock, in that it has an eminently simple, safe and fast manual of arms, shares the polygonal barrel and low bore-axis, and excels in accuracy where it lacks in capacity.
 
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