re: Roller Locking Actions

Blackgunlover, you have missed the essential part of this type of action, and that is the bolt carrier, in your diagram. If you remove the bolt carrier, the action will not cycle, regardless of the amount of force on the bolt head. This is precisely because that force is transmitted as you have indicated.

The locking piece does not move rearward as a result of force upon the rollers. Until the bolt carrier moves rearward, pulling the attached "locking piece" rearward in the bolt, which allows the roller to move inward, the bolt remains physically locked.

I am curious to understand your assertion that the force vectors actually change direction or ratio with the change (fall) in post-ignition chamber pressure. That is contrary to the physics I learned.
 
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nairbg said:
Blackgunlover, you have missed the essential part of this type of action, and that is the bolt carrier, in your diagram. If you remove the bolt carrier, the action will not cycle, regardless of the amount of force on the bolt head. This is precisely because that force is transmitted as you have indicated.

The locking piece does not move rearward as a result of force upon the rollers. Until the bolt carrier moves rearward, pulling the attached "locking piece" rearward in the bolt, which allows the roller to move inward, the bolt remains physically locked.

I am curious to understand your assertion that the force vectors actually change direction or ratio with the change (fall) in post-ignition chamber pressure. That is contrary to the physics I learned.
Click to expand...

The bolt carrier does just that. It carries the bolt. The only energy to get to the bolt carrier is through the locking piece which in turn gets its energy through the bolt head motion. You appear to be mistaking the bolt carrier to have the same function as a gas operated carrier.
The vectors don't change direction they change magnitude. When the vector forcing the rollers out has a larger magnitude than the vector pushing the bolt head back, then the mechanism is stationary. When the magnitude of the vector pushing out drops to less than the one pushing back, then all parts start to move. Dont forget newtons second law which most people learn as F=ma in which both F and a are vector forces is a dumbed down version of the original. The original of Newtons work for anyone beyond a highschool education in physics is F=d(mv)/dt with both F and p as vectors. If you want to do mass flow which is what this mechanism is a type of or propulsion you must use F=d(mv)/dt. If not done this way you end up with stoneage technology. And yes vectors do change direction. Any example of radial momentum deals with this.

Try this one
Psi=Asin((n(subx)pi(x))/L)sin((n(suby)pi(y))/L)sin(n(subz)pi(z)/L)

prove that A=sqrt8/L^3

I will give you a hint it is schrodinger's wave equation for 3 dimension.
 
Good gawd people...get a life

Psi=Asin((n(subx)pi(x))/L)sin((n(suby)pi(y))/L)sin(n(subz)pi(z)/L)

prove that A=sqrt8/L^3
Click to expand...

rollers.jpg
 
Blackgunlover said:
The bolt carrier does just that. It carries the bolt. The only energy to get to the bolt carrier is through the locking piece which in turn gets its energy through the bolt head motion. You appear to be mistaking the bolt carrier to have the same function as a gas operated carrier.
Click to expand...
Actually, you're getting close. The bolt carrier in this HK action does precisely what the gas operated bolt carrier does. The rearward motion pulls the locking piece rearward, and that unlocks the rollers. It is not the force acting through the rollers.


Blackgunlover said:
The vectors don't change direction they change magnitude. When the vector forcing the rollers out has a larger magnitude than the vector pushing the bolt head back, then the mechanism is stationary. When the magnitude of the vector pushing out drops to less than the one pushing back, then all parts start to move. Dont forget newtons second law which most people learn as F=ma in which both F and a are vector forces is a dumbed down version of the original. The original of Newtons work for anyone beyond a highschool education in physics is F=d(mv)/dt with both F and p as vectors. If you want to do mass flow which is what this mechanism is a type of or propulsion you must use F=d(mv)/dt. If not done this way you end up with stoneage technology. And yes vectors do change direction. Any example of radial momentum deals with this.

Try this one
Psi=Asin((n(subx)pi(x))/L)sin((n(suby)pi(y))/L)sin(n(subz)pi(z)/L)

prove that A=sqrt8/L^3

I will give you a hint it is schrodinger's wave equation for 3 dimension.
Click to expand...

Nice try, but you are not the only one here with an iron ring. This equasion is immaterial to your arguement.
 
Bugger! I hate doing this. I raise my hand and admit the error of my ways. It's a locked blowback action. Grumble grumble, how come they never hire any competent engineers where I work?:runaway:

I will stand by my assertion that the BHP is a locked short recoil action and most definetly NOT a blowback though.......:D
 
nairbg said:
Actually, you're getting close. The bolt carrier in this HK action does precisely what the gas operated bolt carrier does. The rearward motion pulls the locking piece rearward, and that unlocks the rollers. It is not the force acting through the rollers.
Click to expand...

You are still wrong the bolt carrier gets pushed back by the locking piece. Explain to everyone how you think the the bolt carrier gets its energy.

I don't think you have an iron ring. otherwise you would know that a vector can change direct shape and magnitude.

Klunks picture shows it all just follow the arrows down.
 
Looking at Klunks pics, I tend to go back to my former position, thats not locking, its just forcing the bolt carrier to move though a linkage (the rollers) with an extreme mechanical advantage, isn't it?:confused:
 
Cocked&Locked said:
with an extreme mechanical advantage, isn't it?:confused:
Click to expand...

An extreme mechanical DISadvantage

The rollers transfer the force of recoil to the locking peice which is 'squeezed' reward...eventually the rollers unlock but by then the bullet has left the barrel and the case can be extracted

This system extracts VERY soon after firing which necesitates the use of the fluted chamber

I have never had a malfuntion with this type of reefle
 
either way the significant motion of all locked or delayed actions happens after the bullet leaves the barrel meaning that the accuracy is not affected by it. As both fire from the closed bolt possn. the action's effect on accuracy would be minimal. am i correct in this or am I about to be assaulted by the men in the flame suits?
 
Klunk said:
An extreme mechanical DISadvantage

The rollers transfer the force of recoil to the locking peice which is 'squeezed' reward...eventually the rollers unlock but by then the bullet has left the barrel and the case can be extracted

This system extracts VERY soon after firing which necesitates the use of the fluted chamber

I have never had a malfuntion with this type of reefle
Click to expand...


Whoops!:redface: thats what I ment to type, never trust spell checker

Other then two case seperations (one that was nasty) no problems here either.
 
Blackgunlover said:
You are still wrong the bolt carrier gets pushed back by the locking piece. Explain to everyone how you think the the bolt carrier gets its energy.
Click to expand...

Indeed.......... read post #30 para 4 (billiard balls analogy)
 
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