Is that pretentious name dropping or will you tell readers what Bryan Litz says about shooting .22LR over long distances?
Realistic 100 Yard Accuracy
- Thread starter -Doug-
- Start date
Is that pretentious name dropping or will you tell readers what Bryan Litz says about shooting .22LR over long distances?
This is ridiculous...
You guys make completely unfounded claims about what is not possible and provide absolutely no evidence to support such claim and then attack the person who suggests anything to the contrary like a pack of wild dogs.
And now I'm pretentious.... OK... nice.
Party on guys.
I have nothing to prove here.
I think we are actually both right.
If you believe you cant do it you are absolutely right... you cant.
We're talking about a pop can here... not a golf ball for crying out loud.
You guys make completely unfounded claims about what is not possible and provide absolutely no evidence to support such claim and then attack the person who suggests anything to the contrary like a pack of wild dogs.
And now I'm pretentious.... OK... nice.
Party on guys.
I have nothing to prove here.
I think we are actually both right.
If you believe you cant do it you are absolutely right... you cant.
We're talking about a pop can here... not a golf ball for crying out loud.
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If you believe you can do it, simply show it. That's all. Anyone who makes a claim recognized as questionable should be willing to back it up. Otherwise it's an unsubstantiated boast about how accurately you say you can shoot a .22LR at 200 and 300 yards. And since boasts are a dime a dozen, and even cheaper on the internet, it's incumbent on the maker of such claims to back them up. Shooters can be a cautious lot, and when someone says they can do something they themselves can't they often get their guard up.
Asking people to provide evidence to support their view that what is claimed is not possible is not reasonable. When someone makes a questionable claim the onus for proof is on the party making the claim.
The reason your claim is challenged is that experience and practice does not support it. Shooting a .22LR at long range has different challenges than shooting a centerfire at long range. Clinging to the motto "I can do anything I want to if I try" simply isn't enough -- even if there's an app for that. Don't take it personally. Everyone makes mistakes.
Here's a claim made in post #62 on April 9, 2019, at 10:18:
If you've shot 1 MOA at 200 yards often enough you must have not only an excellent rifle, excellent ammo, and not a wee bit of excellent luck. And you say you regularly shoot 1.5MOA at 300 yards. Please post targets to support these claims. If you showed such targets people here would be a lot more willing to believe what you say and you would be deservedly lauded. And if you're shooting these results with the CZ 452 Varmint you said you were shooting only a month-and-a-half ago, then your rifle would be hailed as one of the greatest shooting CZ rifles ever.
In the meantime, don't take this as a personal attack. When a claim is taken too far and subsequently doubted the proponent often feels defensive. Perhaps I made a mistake when I suggested that name-dropping was pretentious, and I apologize. Nevertheless I remain curious to learn what Bryan Litz has to say on the subject of long range .22LR shooting.
Holding MOA at 300M with a centre fire is hard enough most days for the majority of shooters - I think that is why claims like this are often turned into threads like this.
The nice thing these days though is that everyone has a camera (their phone) so taking photo graphic evidence is easy enough.
As the youths say "show us the receipts"
The nice thing these days though is that everyone has a camera (their phone) so taking photo graphic evidence is easy enough.
As the youths say "show us the receipts"
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
And even then, a picture isn't worth all that much.
I remember "teasing" a fellow club member... He was bragging about the group he'd just fired with pistol @ 20 yards.
- He'd somehow forgot I was in the next lane, and his target could't have been more than 5 yards away... Maybe he met 20'...
-=-=-=-
We ought to form a Internet shooting team, they'd owned the Olympic!
I remember "teasing" a fellow club member... He was bragging about the group he'd just fired with pistol @ 20 yards.
- He'd somehow forgot I was in the next lane, and his target could't have been more than 5 yards away... Maybe he met 20'...
-=-=-=-
We ought to form a Internet shooting team, they'd owned the Olympic!
Fling enough lead and you'll produce some excellent groups at long range. It is, however, uncommon to find any rimfire ammo capable of consistent sub-MOA performance at 200+ yards. .22 LR tends to not follow a linear increase in dispersion with increased distance, it is more exponential in growth. Ex. 1/4 MOA at 25 yards to 1/2 MOA at 50 yards to 3/4-1 MOA at 100 yards to 2-3 MOA at 200 yards, etc. An accurate centerfire will maintain sub-MOA accuracy out to a much further distance.
Your math is off... at 300 yards a 10 fps variation would result in approximately 2.19" of vertical dispersion. Your numbers are more inline with 200 yard vertical spread, figure about an inch per 10 fps. Shoot a whole box of 50 at one target at 200 yards, and tell me how many brands can keep the vertical under 4" counting every shot. Here's a secret, very few, this testing has already been done. You ain't hittin a pop can all day at 300 yards, the vertical from the ammo velocity variation prohibits it. You will hit it numerous times, but not every time no matter how well you shoot or read the wind. Such is rimfire.
Actually Ryan I do have pictures, but I figure it's pointless to post them as I will be accused of lying anyway. They'll say I could shoot from anywhere and say it was 300 yards... so I'm not going to bother.
I'll shoot video next time so nobody could cry BS.
I never said MOA BTW, I said pop can at 300. Pop cans are about 1.66 MOA vertical and just under 1 MOA wide.
I figure there is about 2 inches of vertical due to speed variations plus just under 1 MOA accuracy results in a group the size of a pop can which matches the results from actual shooting. If that bruises egos, that's life...
My 800 yard practice range is over an hour and a half away, so I don't go there every weekend... but it's spring so I'll be going back soon. I have some 168 grain Hornady ELDs loaded to test in the Cadex.
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Just post the darn pictures...
Some folks must have their own backhoes. They can dig themselves deeper without much effort or thought. At the same time they destroy their credibility.
You claimed you have shot 1 MOA at 200 yards "often enough":
Often enough -- more than once or twice? As Ian Fleming observed, "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action" -- and here enemy action is deliberate BS.
Even more, the claim is extended to shoot 1.5 MOA at 300 yards. To compound matters, making it even more incredible, is that you're on record here as using a CZ 452 Varmint. https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1837521-Most-consistent-velocity-22-LR-Ammo In this thread from February this year you first broached the idea of trying to find what ammo might be most suitable for shooting out to 300 yards. The CZ 452 Varmint is a nice rifle for what it's intended, but it's not a likely candidate for excellent results beyond 100 yards.
Perhaps your a victim, held hostage, as it were, by ideas of geometry. Geometry is fine if you're drawing angles and calculating the theoretical group size longer and longer ranges. In practice -- and especially with a .22LR -- it doesn't work that way. The fact that a shooter may shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards with a .22LR doesn't ipso facto mean that he can shoot 1 MOA at 200 or even 1.5 MOA at 300.
By clinging to foolhardy and ill-conceived claims you have done yourself a disservice. You now say you conveniently have pictures but refuse to post them just the same. It's unfortunate that they weren't posted at the first sign of doubt. It might not be easy to recover credibility.
Shooters that live on paper or in the digital realm find it easy to make claims that are hard for shooters, that operate in the real world at real ranges, to swallow... and when challenged invariably fall back on the quoted statement above...
After all the insinuations in this thread I'm reluctant to post this.
Now what... Photoshop?
I have the whole day on video if you have a few hours to watch it.
Side view of rifle
Bench View 200 Yards
Random 200 yard groups
https://i.imgur.com/WOhZyfw.jpg
My buddy on right me on left at 250 yards
Green target in upper left is 269 yards from firing point... I rarely miss it under any reasonable wind.
250 yard target closer
Green popper targets upper left are about 272 yards from firing point.
250 yard target
From bench shooting at 300 yards
Target at 300 yards
Now what... Photoshop?
I have the whole day on video if you have a few hours to watch it.
Side view of rifle
Bench View 200 Yards
Random 200 yard groups
https://i.imgur.com/WOhZyfw.jpg
My buddy on right me on left at 250 yards
Green target in upper left is 269 yards from firing point... I rarely miss it under any reasonable wind.
250 yard target closer
Green popper targets upper left are about 272 yards from firing point.
250 yard target
From bench shooting at 300 yards
Target at 300 yards
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After all the insinuations in this thread I'm reluctant to post this.
Now what... Photoshop?
I have the whole day on video if you have a few hours to watch it.
Random 200 yard groups
https://i.imgur.com/WOhZyfw.jpg
Incredible. Now there are pictures to support the claims made previously. More than that, there is a video too.
The rifle is a stock CZ 452 Varmint that perhaps has had a spring change. A bipod is used in the front and in the back a Protektor rear bag. The sling swivel with a sling strap remains in the butt stock.
The scope appears to be a Vortex 6-24X50 (perhaps a Viper model?).
The ammo shown in the pictures is CCI Troy Landry edition Mini Mags, RWS Target Rifle (orange box), RWS Rifle Match (yellow box).
The 200 yard target shows RWS Pistol Match, RWS Rifle Match, Browning BPR, CCI Velocitor, and Eley Tenex. All groups are very, very good for 200 yards. The Eley Tenex is the best, followed closely behind by the Eley Club and RWS Pistol Match groups. The CCI Velocitor did not produce as tight a group as the Eley and RWS ammo but should still be considered excellent for HV .22LR ammo. Only the Browning ammo showed any consequences of wind drift, according to the handwritten comment beside the single flier, a curiosity if anything as the other ammo did not drift at all because of the wind.
It's not clear whether the "Random 200 yard groups" groups shown above were with lot tested ammo, but as they were random and included a wide variety of .22LR ammo a reasonable assumption is that they were not. That is quite a stroke of good fortune to have so many different ammos perform so very well at 200 yards. None of the ammos appear to have suffered much from vertical spread due to inconsistent MV, surely an amazingly fortuitous circumstance that helps explain the results.
The target circles appear to be approximately an inch in diameter (which is like looking at 0.25" target circles at 50 yards). While none of the groups at 200 yards appear to be 1 MOA, the results nonetheless seem nothing short of incredible.
These results are a testament to the remarkable and incredible shooting skill of the shooter. It is also a testament to the equally remarkable and incredible rifle, the CZ 452 Varmint. It didn't need to be a match rifle with a match chamber, it didn't need a custom barrel, and it certainly didn't need top tier ammo (Tenex aside) to produce truly unbelievable results. It is also a testament to the remarkable and incredible ammo -- each variety used. None showed any significant vertical or horizontal spread due to inconsistent MV or slight variation in the lightest of breezes. No one else has produced and shown such impressive results with random ammo and an everyman's rifle.
If that is actually 200yds that is better than most Target rifles in my experience. My CZ452 Varmint can barely shoot better than that @ 100yds.
Got Juice?
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Peoples Republik of Kanukkistan
interesting 200 yard groups. much better groupings than my match rifles and match ammo can produce. I best bring out my 452 Varmint and sell my match guns.
deadeyejack
New member
- Location
- Richelieu Valley (Quebec)
That 300 yard target looks more like it's at 300 feet…. Or maybe it's the camera perspective?
Yeah it definitely doesn't look like 3 football fields away
The far tree line is 490 yards away.
The first upstanding target left of the Labradar is 50 yards away.
The firing point is slightly elevated.
The green arrow is covering the mound just past 100 yards.... if you look close there is a block of wood on the trail at 100 yards.
While grauhanen was quite gracious, I did not post these pictures in search of anyone's praise.
They were simply posted to illustrate what can be done if you keep an open mind and care to put in a little time and effort.
These results are typical in relatively calm conditions on any given day.
While I may occasionally play possum in some of my posts, I've been involved in long range shooting for 40 years and couldn't be bothered to lie about this.
Most of my shooting mentors have passed away in recent years, but I've learned from some of the best international long range and small bore shooters.
If some of them were still alive, they'd show you groups half that size, and graciously explain how they did it.
The first upstanding target left of the Labradar is 50 yards away.
The firing point is slightly elevated.
The green arrow is covering the mound just past 100 yards.... if you look close there is a block of wood on the trail at 100 yards.
While grauhanen was quite gracious, I did not post these pictures in search of anyone's praise.
They were simply posted to illustrate what can be done if you keep an open mind and care to put in a little time and effort.
These results are typical in relatively calm conditions on any given day.
While I may occasionally play possum in some of my posts, I've been involved in long range shooting for 40 years and couldn't be bothered to lie about this.
Most of my shooting mentors have passed away in recent years, but I've learned from some of the best international long range and small bore shooters.
If some of them were still alive, they'd show you groups half that size, and graciously explain how they did it.
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