Rebarreling my Enfield
- Thread starter Frost Cracked
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Had a look. Read the article. Very informative but still doesn't quite answer all the questions I have.
The shoulder (I assume that's what the non-threaded extra bit on the barrel is called, was not able to find a definitive answer) when hand-tightened is about 30 degrees, out of synch with the action.
The breach-face, is slightly away from the action face, even if I was to turn it the last way it looks like there is/will be, a small gap there.
What exactly am I going to need to have done here? From what I've gathered I need to file down the barrel shoulder just a hair, until the synch is about 18 degrees, and, I need to find some sort of washer or whathaveyou, to take up the missing space between the breach and the action?
The shoulder (I assume that's what the non-threaded extra bit on the barrel is called, was not able to find a definitive answer) when hand-tightened is about 30 degrees, out of synch with the action.
The breach-face, is slightly away from the action face, even if I was to turn it the last way it looks like there is/will be, a small gap there.
What exactly am I going to need to have done here? From what I've gathered I need to file down the barrel shoulder just a hair, until the synch is about 18 degrees, and, I need to find some sort of washer or whathaveyou, to take up the missing space between the breach and the action?
If you have the barrel hand tight at 30 deg off vertical index you will need to have a 'smith or machinist remove some steel from the barrel shoulder with a lathe until it will get into the desired 18 deg position before tightening it to vertical with the action wrench. Do not try to remove metal from the barrel shoulder with a file. You will never be able to do this evenly and the end result will be a barrel with uneven tension on the face of the receiver which will undoubtedly lead to poor accuracy. You can have him skim a bit of metal off incrementally and keep on trying the fit until you get down to the 18 deg position.
A breeching washer is made for use in cases where the barrel shows less than the desired 18 deg position when it is hand tight on the receiver. In this case a breeching washer of the appropriate thickness (they came in several sizes) was used between the face of the receiver and the barrel shoulder to get it done right. They were also used with the M1903 Springfield when necessary and I have one that will work ticketty-boo when I do my next M1903 build. In this case the hand tight position was only a couple of degrees off vertical and the washer puts it at the 17-18 deg position, which co-incidentally, is the same position for the No4. You can't really compare the 2 though as the No4 uses "V" threads on the barrel whereas the M1903 uses square threads.
I don't know that the 18 deg position was set in stone and things will no doubt work out with a barrel a few degrees one way or another. In the military they had a good supply of barrels and could normally find one that would time up properly by trial fitting several to the receiver. There are also variables in tolerances and there is always a difference when installing a used barrel, rather than a new one. 30 deg is waaay too far off with a No4 barrel IMHO. You did clean out the threads inside the receiver, right? A small wire wheel on a Dremel works good for this and won't really make any dimensional changes.
The first No4 barrel that I ever installed was done in the mid-1970s under the supervision of the late Tom Richardson. Tom had been an NCO in the long disbanded Victoria Rifles of Canada and was a celebrated Bisley shooter with the No4. I remember us being down in Tom's basement in Greenfield Park, Quebec putting this No4 together. It was pretty tight on the receiver and I can still see Tom, who was a small man, dangling off the end of the wrench in mid-air as be pulled the barrel into position. I have no recollection of where the hand tight position was on this one, but I still have that rifle and it has always shot well. Tom was a DND civvy who worked at 202 Workshop in Montreal. The last time I saw Tom he was working on upgunning our M109 howitzers, quite a switch from rebarreling a Lee-Enfield.
A breeching washer is made for use in cases where the barrel shows less than the desired 18 deg position when it is hand tight on the receiver. In this case a breeching washer of the appropriate thickness (they came in several sizes) was used between the face of the receiver and the barrel shoulder to get it done right. They were also used with the M1903 Springfield when necessary and I have one that will work ticketty-boo when I do my next M1903 build. In this case the hand tight position was only a couple of degrees off vertical and the washer puts it at the 17-18 deg position, which co-incidentally, is the same position for the No4. You can't really compare the 2 though as the No4 uses "V" threads on the barrel whereas the M1903 uses square threads.
I don't know that the 18 deg position was set in stone and things will no doubt work out with a barrel a few degrees one way or another. In the military they had a good supply of barrels and could normally find one that would time up properly by trial fitting several to the receiver. There are also variables in tolerances and there is always a difference when installing a used barrel, rather than a new one. 30 deg is waaay too far off with a No4 barrel IMHO. You did clean out the threads inside the receiver, right? A small wire wheel on a Dremel works good for this and won't really make any dimensional changes.
The first No4 barrel that I ever installed was done in the mid-1970s under the supervision of the late Tom Richardson. Tom had been an NCO in the long disbanded Victoria Rifles of Canada and was a celebrated Bisley shooter with the No4. I remember us being down in Tom's basement in Greenfield Park, Quebec putting this No4 together. It was pretty tight on the receiver and I can still see Tom, who was a small man, dangling off the end of the wrench in mid-air as be pulled the barrel into position. I have no recollection of where the hand tight position was on this one, but I still have that rifle and it has always shot well. Tom was a DND civvy who worked at 202 Workshop in Montreal. The last time I saw Tom he was working on upgunning our M109 howitzers, quite a switch from rebarreling a Lee-Enfield.
If you have access to a lathe, use a parting tool to relieve the old barrel.
Grizz
Hey guys, just an update.
I took the barrel/reciever to the gunsmith over the weekend, and we got the overturn down, to about 21 degrees with some very careful work. That's close enough for me, if it makes a huge difference in trial, I can always make another go at it. I took the receiver and the barrel home, and gave them a good brushing on the threads with a copper-bristle brush. Got all the gunk and such, out of the action and out of the threads. Personally I'm thankful it was overturn instead of under. Taking a bit off is a lot easier than having to put it back on again.
Both parts are sitting in the lock-up right now, while I wait for the barreling paste to come in. Have an angle-measure guide, and will be measuring indexing from the reciever, to the sight-protector. And yes, I allready calibrated the difference between the sight protectors index of angle, and the barrel flat, so will be compensating for that. (Think it's like... the sight protector is a degree off counter-clockwise, so... maths.)
Hoping really hard that the other parts come in from Numrich. Friend of mine is getting a mutual friend with LOTS of Enfield experience to do the bedding for the stock.
Then I'll just have to explain to my gunsmith how to mount the scope-dealies to spec. Oh the fun of project guns.
I took the barrel/reciever to the gunsmith over the weekend, and we got the overturn down, to about 21 degrees with some very careful work. That's close enough for me, if it makes a huge difference in trial, I can always make another go at it. I took the receiver and the barrel home, and gave them a good brushing on the threads with a copper-bristle brush. Got all the gunk and such, out of the action and out of the threads. Personally I'm thankful it was overturn instead of under. Taking a bit off is a lot easier than having to put it back on again.
Both parts are sitting in the lock-up right now, while I wait for the barreling paste to come in. Have an angle-measure guide, and will be measuring indexing from the reciever, to the sight-protector. And yes, I allready calibrated the difference between the sight protectors index of angle, and the barrel flat, so will be compensating for that. (Think it's like... the sight protector is a degree off counter-clockwise, so... maths.)
Hoping really hard that the other parts come in from Numrich. Friend of mine is getting a mutual friend with LOTS of Enfield experience to do the bedding for the stock.
Then I'll just have to explain to my gunsmith how to mount the scope-dealies to spec. Oh the fun of project guns.
From your previous posts I had the idea that you had an underturn situation, rather than an overturn. If so, and you are 21 degrees away, chances are that you will be able to bring it into index OK. Put some barrel paste on the threads and the face of the receiver and pull it into index. If it's tight, you can back off the wrench a couple of times and have another go.
The MILSURP crowd won't be happy to hear that you are scoping it, but it's your rifle. If you want a scope without going the drill and tap route, try an SK no drill mount.
The MILSURP crowd won't be happy to hear that you are scoping it, but it's your rifle. If you want a scope without going the drill and tap route, try an SK no drill mount.
I know how they'd feel. I absolutely hate seeing someone butcher or bubba a classic old rifle. Chop off the end, drill holes in it etc.
Seeing as I'm making a #4 T clone though, a bit of drilling is kind of needed. When I started this build I was looking hard, for a #4 T receiver, ideally from a bubba or someone's pile of parts, but that didn't work out. I'm making every effort I can to make this 100% authentic, even if it isn't a "real" #4 T I'm trying to make sure it's done properly, the way the armourers would have done it, in the day. When it's done it'll look as close as I can make it. I more or less did this, since I can likely never afford a REAL #4 T unless I win a lottery or something.
You should inspect the front face of the receiver carefully. Depends on the finish and what you plan in that department, but if you're going to refinish or are not too worried about originality, so-called, then very carefully lap the front face on a piece of granite countertop (fine grained), heavy plate glass, lapping plate or something else that is dead flat using a 400-800 grip paper. You will have to be very careful not to rock the receiver as you do this. It will require slow, circular motion while holding the receiver ring only. Check the face frequently and if it looks like you have an even bearing, you can stop the lapping.
If you really want to check things out, turn up a mandrel that will just fit down the bolt way, set the receiver up between centers and use a dial indicator to check the concentricity of the front face and the bolt way.
The Mk1/2 is a better receiver all other things being equal: it was gauged and inspected before being converted. An old Mk.I is less of a known quantity.
The fun part will be getting the foresight lined up with the axis of the backsight. Leave the backsight axis pin in the action after you removed the backsight. You need a flat surface to set the barreled receiver on upside down, using a gauge block or something similar to rest the backsight crosspin. The longer the 'flag' you attach in place of the foresight, the easier it will be to see error. I think Peter Laidler covered all this in one of his articles. You'll be going back and forth trying to get it to stop at just the right spot!
If you really want to check things out, turn up a mandrel that will just fit down the bolt way, set the receiver up between centers and use a dial indicator to check the concentricity of the front face and the bolt way.
The Mk1/2 is a better receiver all other things being equal: it was gauged and inspected before being converted. An old Mk.I is less of a known quantity.
The fun part will be getting the foresight lined up with the axis of the backsight. Leave the backsight axis pin in the action after you removed the backsight. You need a flat surface to set the barreled receiver on upside down, using a gauge block or something similar to rest the backsight crosspin. The longer the 'flag' you attach in place of the foresight, the easier it will be to see error. I think Peter Laidler covered all this in one of his articles. You'll be going back and forth trying to get it to stop at just the right spot!
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Picture of the original receiver, with the 'donor' barrel.
Picture of the Receiver
Picture of the Receiver again. The text as it's hard to make out, says:
No 4 Mk 1/2 (F) FTP
No 4 Mk 1 (this part is struck through)
/52 13667
S'cool. It's one of my "Staging Rugs" for taking pictures on. I like to use a flat background. Helps it stand out, so you're just looking at the rifle/hat/bacon sandwich and not a dozen other things.
Give it the oven cleaner treatment and you might as well clean up all the sharp edges with your needle files before you bead blast and parkerize it. There's no pretense of originality once you slap a set of scope bases on there, so you can make it a little more user-friendly. It's already had a civvy blue job since it was overhauled in '52.
At the moment I've paid, not including shipping costs, about $650 (with about $150 being the price of the scope bits). I ended up with some extra charges because I had to find a new barrel, but, I'm approximately at what I figured I would be spending.
Even so, it's still a nice way to get a homage to a #4 T at a decent cost.
Parts came in today. Ugh. Stock is not in great shape. The main forestock looks like it's got some tar on it. Front handguard is cracked, buttstock looks like it was made with a 2x4 and a sander, sling swivel inlet is on an angle...
No pictures today. I've got everything in degreaser, will be sanding and trying to get a semi-uniform look from 5 different shades of wood. Lots of rough edges, and general discolourment. Thankfully this'll be my... what, 5th? time I work on old wood that's in sore need of some TLC so hopefully everything will turn out alright.
On the plus side, cheek rest is mint. So, got that going for me.
No pictures today. I've got everything in degreaser, will be sanding and trying to get a semi-uniform look from 5 different shades of wood. Lots of rough edges, and general discolourment. Thankfully this'll be my... what, 5th? time I work on old wood that's in sore need of some TLC so hopefully everything will turn out alright.
On the plus side, cheek rest is mint. So, got that going for me.
