Recent Blow-up of a Sako 85
- Thread starter South Pender
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From the Accurate Reloading forum thread:
"He then switched to cheaper Federal "blue box" factory ammo. 180 gr out of the box. When he pulled the trigger on the first Federal round the gun literally exploded nearly taking off his Right thumb"
<<<<<<<>>>>>>>
This is getting out there, way out there, but if the round exploded in any sort out out of battery fire (firing pin sticking after previous shot), then with part of the case outside the chamber, it should not have created that much violence. Something seriously high pressured sheared those bolt lugs. They must have been at least partially engaged.
Now to go further out there. Guys are standing at the LGS gun counter and want to see the difference between 300 WM ammo and 338WM. Two boxes get opened and looked over. The rounds get returned to the wrong box. The shooter in the OP unluckily buys the 300 WM box with the one 338 WM round.
If this happened, some other guy is trying to figure out why a 300 WM won't chamber properly in his 338 WM. One hopes the bullets are different, the issue is visually obvious, and then the headstamps confirm it. Or he has a near field headspace chamber and really hammered the bolt closed. (Quite unlikely). If this crazy possibility occurred, he might also be wondering why he had a keyhole.
But back to this poor OP guy, could there be the bad combination of the 338 bullet making it out of the barrel, and the headstamp portion of the 338 case vaporized? Any remnants of the case upper body, shoulder, or neck will tell us nothing. I thought of this because I opened a new toothpaste the other day, and they are all sealed. I don't buy much factory ammo, but are 20 round boxes still easily opened and unsealed ?
"He then switched to cheaper Federal "blue box" factory ammo. 180 gr out of the box. When he pulled the trigger on the first Federal round the gun literally exploded nearly taking off his Right thumb"
<<<<<<<>>>>>>>
This is getting out there, way out there, but if the round exploded in any sort out out of battery fire (firing pin sticking after previous shot), then with part of the case outside the chamber, it should not have created that much violence. Something seriously high pressured sheared those bolt lugs. They must have been at least partially engaged.
Now to go further out there. Guys are standing at the LGS gun counter and want to see the difference between 300 WM ammo and 338WM. Two boxes get opened and looked over. The rounds get returned to the wrong box. The shooter in the OP unluckily buys the 300 WM box with the one 338 WM round.
If this happened, some other guy is trying to figure out why a 300 WM won't chamber properly in his 338 WM. One hopes the bullets are different, the issue is visually obvious, and then the headstamps confirm it. Or he has a near field headspace chamber and really hammered the bolt closed. (Quite unlikely). If this crazy possibility occurred, he might also be wondering why he had a keyhole.
But back to this poor OP guy, could there be the bad combination of the 338 bullet making it out of the barrel, and the headstamp portion of the 338 case vaporized? Any remnants of the case upper body, shoulder, or neck will tell us nothing. I thought of this because I opened a new toothpaste the other day, and they are all sealed. I don't buy much factory ammo, but are 20 round boxes still easily opened and unsealed ?
Just a couple of further thoughts:
1.Some have attributed the Sako blow-ups (also stainless Sako 85s I believe) that occurred years ago--around 2005, I think--to faulty stainless steel. As I asked in that thread, could this be a possible factor in this case (another stainless Sako 85)? Here is the link referenced in that thread by LHeym500, which appeared in the Sako Collectors Club forum:
https://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/sako-recall-and-blown-up-rifles.2453/
For convenience, I’ve printed it out below:
“I received the following message from a friend in Finland. It is a translation of a Finnish press report regarding the recall of Sako rifles. This is the official word on the matter, and I might add, the final reply to the member who blew off his mouth that the blown-up gun was obviously a fake that had been done intentionally!
“Finnish gun manufacturer SAKO recalls faulty hunting weapons. American man injured when Sako rifle explodes
“The Finnish hunting rifle manufacturer Sako has recalled nearly 3,000 of its guns with a potential defect that could cause it to break apart when fired. In October, Mark Almeida, a 45-year-old American living in University Place, Washington, suffered injuries to his hand when his new Sako 300 Winchester Short Mag Finnlight model rifle exploded while he was shooting at a firing range.
“‘The target was 200 yards away when I pulled the trigger. The gun let out a powerful explosive sound that I had never heard before, and it broke up in my hands’, he explains. He was rushed to hospital with four broken bones in his hand. He was in surgery for four hours.
“After the incident, Sako ordered a recall of its series of 2,700 weapons. Sako CEO Henry Paasikivi says that a total of six guns are known to have malfunctioned in the same way - one of them in Finland. In one case, a Swedish boy lost the tip of his thumb.
“The barrels would break up lengthwise into several fragments, and in some cases, other parts of the gun also broke. The problem was attributed to a weakness in the stainless steel used in the manufacture. Guns of the series in question were sold to several countries, from the United States to New Zealand, before the defect was noticed.
“All buyers have been notified, and most of the guns have been returned to the factory for repairs or replacement, except for a few in the United States.
“The faulty rifles were manufactured at the company's factory in RiihimxE4ki last year. They include Sako and Tikka models.
“When the problems arose, Sako immediately discontinued production and deliveries of the models, and began to recall them from retailers, and contacted individual buyers. However, the company did not make any public statements at the time. ‘We did not consider that necessary, because we were able to reach all owners of the weapons in other ways,’ he said.
“‘We have got all of the guns back, except in the United States, and 90 percent of the weapons we sold there have been located. All consumers have been contacted a long time ago.’
“Paasikivi says that the weapons will be repaired, if necessary, and sent back to the owners.”
2. ALF, the poster on that thread, noted:
"The only thing that I can think of is ammonia corrosion and stress cracking of steel and brass alloys. With all the ammonia-based cleaning agents (used to clear copper from barrels) I worry about the ammonia getting into the action and when combined with high humidity, which we have in BC its a recipe for disaster. I have removed all ammonia containing solvents from my gun room!"
I've never heard about ammonia having this effect on steel, so don’t know what to make of his speculation. Is this a possibility?
1.Some have attributed the Sako blow-ups (also stainless Sako 85s I believe) that occurred years ago--around 2005, I think--to faulty stainless steel. As I asked in that thread, could this be a possible factor in this case (another stainless Sako 85)? Here is the link referenced in that thread by LHeym500, which appeared in the Sako Collectors Club forum:
https://sakocollectors.com/forum/threads/sako-recall-and-blown-up-rifles.2453/
For convenience, I’ve printed it out below:
“I received the following message from a friend in Finland. It is a translation of a Finnish press report regarding the recall of Sako rifles. This is the official word on the matter, and I might add, the final reply to the member who blew off his mouth that the blown-up gun was obviously a fake that had been done intentionally!
“Finnish gun manufacturer SAKO recalls faulty hunting weapons. American man injured when Sako rifle explodes
“The Finnish hunting rifle manufacturer Sako has recalled nearly 3,000 of its guns with a potential defect that could cause it to break apart when fired. In October, Mark Almeida, a 45-year-old American living in University Place, Washington, suffered injuries to his hand when his new Sako 300 Winchester Short Mag Finnlight model rifle exploded while he was shooting at a firing range.
“‘The target was 200 yards away when I pulled the trigger. The gun let out a powerful explosive sound that I had never heard before, and it broke up in my hands’, he explains. He was rushed to hospital with four broken bones in his hand. He was in surgery for four hours.
“After the incident, Sako ordered a recall of its series of 2,700 weapons. Sako CEO Henry Paasikivi says that a total of six guns are known to have malfunctioned in the same way - one of them in Finland. In one case, a Swedish boy lost the tip of his thumb.
“The barrels would break up lengthwise into several fragments, and in some cases, other parts of the gun also broke. The problem was attributed to a weakness in the stainless steel used in the manufacture. Guns of the series in question were sold to several countries, from the United States to New Zealand, before the defect was noticed.
“All buyers have been notified, and most of the guns have been returned to the factory for repairs or replacement, except for a few in the United States.
“The faulty rifles were manufactured at the company's factory in RiihimxE4ki last year. They include Sako and Tikka models.
“When the problems arose, Sako immediately discontinued production and deliveries of the models, and began to recall them from retailers, and contacted individual buyers. However, the company did not make any public statements at the time. ‘We did not consider that necessary, because we were able to reach all owners of the weapons in other ways,’ he said.
“‘We have got all of the guns back, except in the United States, and 90 percent of the weapons we sold there have been located. All consumers have been contacted a long time ago.’
“Paasikivi says that the weapons will be repaired, if necessary, and sent back to the owners.”
2. ALF, the poster on that thread, noted:
"The only thing that I can think of is ammonia corrosion and stress cracking of steel and brass alloys. With all the ammonia-based cleaning agents (used to clear copper from barrels) I worry about the ammonia getting into the action and when combined with high humidity, which we have in BC its a recipe for disaster. I have removed all ammonia containing solvents from my gun room!"
I've never heard about ammonia having this effect on steel, so don’t know what to make of his speculation. Is this a possibility?
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you can chamber a 300 win mag in a 338 win mag and you will a perfect fireformed 338 brass once shot...the same was done with a 300 win mag into a 375 ruger ...i doubt you can feed a 338 win mag in the 300 win mag rifle.
Looking at my Speer manual it says the neck of a 300 win mag is 0.3397", which would be JUST ENOUGH to get a 338 bullet into the neck area of the chamber... But you should still have the neck of the 338 case getting jammed into the neck of the 300 chamber before the bolt fully closes..?
Also, the OP claims the bullet exited the barrel, which I can't see a 338cal bullet exiting a 308cal barrel with the action blowing up like that? I could certainly see a 338 bullet coming out a 308 hole with the right combo, but not if all that energy is going to blowing up the action rather than pushing the bullet?
Hydrogen embrittlement is real, you would have to ignore the instructions on the copper remover bottle.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319922009636
Suther and medvedqc, yes I threw those suggestions out there as a joke. Suther your manual's math, at 340-308=32, or .016 wall brass, is pretty thick, although not unseen. Most brass I find to be around .014, but even so, if a 338 is .33+.028=.358. One would have an extremely out of spec chamber at .358 compared to the drawings of 3407 to 3421. So, I agree, something other than a 300 WM is unlikely.
My guess is that the solution to this will be some combination of sear engagement, bolt rotation, and metallurgy.
The 300 win mag case is longer than the 338 WM case.
Is it possible to chamber a 338 in a 300 WM with just just the tip of the 338 bullet entering the throat but the ogive of the bullet not contacting the lands?
I don't know, I've never tried it.
I once found 7x57 brass fireformed to a 270 chamber. No rifle shrapnel found so I assume the rifle survived but the shooter took at least two shots before realizing his mistake.
Is it possible to chamber a 338 in a 300 WM with just just the tip of the 338 bullet entering the throat but the ogive of the bullet not contacting the lands?
I don't know, I've never tried it.
I once found 7x57 brass fireformed to a 270 chamber. No rifle shrapnel found so I assume the rifle survived but the shooter took at least two shots before realizing his mistake.
Looking at the numbers that seems unlikely. This is basically what I was talking about above - the bullet of a 338wm should fit into the neck area of a 300wm chamber, but the neck on the 338wm is long enough that it too would enter the neck area of the 300wm chamber before the bolt is fully closed, at which point you're looking at a neck diameter of ~0.369 in a chamber area of ~0.340 which I would expect would limit your ability to close the bolt all the way.
For reference, COAL on a 338 is 2.500, while the neck on a 300wm starts at 2.356 and has a 2.62 COAL.
Sako 85's weren't around in 2005
ouch .... jealousy will never go far ... but really sako 85 is not really a sako ... for that price you can get 2 t3x tikkas and half ...
Good point, something that I'd overlooked. They arrived in 2006. The Sako rifles recalled were very likely 75s--available at that time in stainless steel. (I don't believe that any of the latest A-series Sakos were available in stainless.) The recalled rifles were evidently stainless models like the present 85 being discussed. It's perhaps worth noting that the receiver form and three-lug bolt of the 85s are very similar to those of the 75s. So I think the possibility of faulty stainless steel (apparently the main factor in the 2005 recalls) remains a consideration in the present case.
This is needle in a haystack conjecture. The possibility of an operator error, barrel obstruction, or other cause is significantly higher, especially given the information being shown.
Just saw the ammonia theory. Unless the action was submerged for a lengthy time in a a very high ammonia concentration, then this too would be virtually impossible. The ammonia content in the cleaners is not high enough to attack the molecular structure of the steel. They can and will discolour the surface finish, but would not corrode enough to cause a failure.
R.
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blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
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"Commonplace"....... except theres no evidence of it happening besides internet forum rumours.
I too have troubles believing this piece of brass:
Caused this detonation:
Looks like the bolt was locked up fine, the receiver ring let go in a catastrophic fashion.
There was a guy in BC that was talked about here not too long ago, he'd been kicked out of 3 ranges or something so far for blowing rifles up...wonder if it's the same dude?
