davemccarthy707
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
All this sickens me.
Reclassification Status on the BD38 and BD3008?
- Thread starter Coyote Ugly
- Start date
Well, it's been a week and a haven't heard from anyone who has - or wants to - file a reference hearing, and I haven't heard anything from the advocacy groups... so I am going to assume it is all over for the BD38 and BD3008 in Canada. If there is a court process going on somewhere in the country... its pretty low key!
Compensation of the purchase price is an extraordinarily powerful tool to get people to dispense with their legal rights under the Act.
I did get a long, expert witness quality, assessment of the BD38 from a very knowledgeable and thoughtful member here on CGN. Unfortunately, just like the T97A, the expert assessment of our own experts reveals the truth... which is the awful truth... the firearms are easily convertible to full-auto. That's all I've ever heard from anyone on these two firearms, since way before the notices of revocation went out: they are open-bolt submachineguns which have been modified... slightly... to fire semi-auto.
This actually raises a few questions for me. Some of you (newer) guys might think that the RCMP firearms lab guys are bumbling burreaucratic doufuses who know little to nothing about firearms and are just appointed to their positions for their "only military and police need them" views, but sadly it isn't true. They actually know a lot about about firearms. All this "don't mention the SKS", "don't mention the CZ-858" stuff is just laughable. They know all about these firearms and have considered all the same questions we consider on forums like this... for years and years. That is the sense I get from discussing these issues with people like Murray Smith, and from cross examining him in court.
Anyway... my point is... when businesses started importing replicas of open-bolt submachineguns, which fire from the open bolt, the RCMP was just oblivious to the obvious Hasselwander issue here? I really doubt that. I know that pre-"T97A fiasco" semi-firearms could be classified for FRT purposes by a verifier (which changed over that case), and maybe the BD3008 and BD38 were classified by a verifier... but I think there is reason to believe that the RCMP is just gradually bolstering its power to "prohibit and revoke" with these firearms which were only ever sold in very small numbers. T97A was the same way: very small numbers (50, less than 30 of which were actually sold to the public); the power to "prohibit and revoke" is now entrenched, and getting stronger with each case, and the compensation paid out is peanuts in the overall picture.
BTW- why were the closed bolt models never imported to Canada? Do they cost more? The open-bolt models could not have been, and were not, imported to the United States, why did we kid ourselves into believing that this would somehow work out well in Canada? (and that is not meant as a criticism of John and Marstar)
Compensation of the purchase price is an extraordinarily powerful tool to get people to dispense with their legal rights under the Act.
I did get a long, expert witness quality, assessment of the BD38 from a very knowledgeable and thoughtful member here on CGN. Unfortunately, just like the T97A, the expert assessment of our own experts reveals the truth... which is the awful truth... the firearms are easily convertible to full-auto. That's all I've ever heard from anyone on these two firearms, since way before the notices of revocation went out: they are open-bolt submachineguns which have been modified... slightly... to fire semi-auto.
This actually raises a few questions for me. Some of you (newer) guys might think that the RCMP firearms lab guys are bumbling burreaucratic doufuses who know little to nothing about firearms and are just appointed to their positions for their "only military and police need them" views, but sadly it isn't true. They actually know a lot about about firearms. All this "don't mention the SKS", "don't mention the CZ-858" stuff is just laughable. They know all about these firearms and have considered all the same questions we consider on forums like this... for years and years. That is the sense I get from discussing these issues with people like Murray Smith, and from cross examining him in court.
Anyway... my point is... when businesses started importing replicas of open-bolt submachineguns, which fire from the open bolt, the RCMP was just oblivious to the obvious Hasselwander issue here? I really doubt that. I know that pre-"T97A fiasco" semi-firearms could be classified for FRT purposes by a verifier (which changed over that case), and maybe the BD3008 and BD38 were classified by a verifier... but I think there is reason to believe that the RCMP is just gradually bolstering its power to "prohibit and revoke" with these firearms which were only ever sold in very small numbers. T97A was the same way: very small numbers (50, less than 30 of which were actually sold to the public); the power to "prohibit and revoke" is now entrenched, and getting stronger with each case, and the compensation paid out is peanuts in the overall picture.
BTW- why were the closed bolt models never imported to Canada? Do they cost more? The open-bolt models could not have been, and were not, imported to the United States, why did we kid ourselves into believing that this would somehow work out well in Canada? (and that is not meant as a criticism of John and Marstar)
- Location
- God's Country. Nova Scotia
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- Location
- God's Country. Nova Scotia
Good note, Ghostie. You're absolutely right.
I might as well add that the RCMP know of the Sterling Police Carbine in semi-auto. It's going to go the way of the BD38. Count your blessings that there's compensation for the BD38. Just keep in mind that the government can't afford to continue this generosity for every future prohib that slick importers want to sell to the uninformed public. No offence to John and Marstar.
Caveat emptor.
Cheers,
Bill
I might as well add that the RCMP know of the Sterling Police Carbine in semi-auto. It's going to go the way of the BD38. Count your blessings that there's compensation for the BD38. Just keep in mind that the government can't afford to continue this generosity for every future prohib that slick importers want to sell to the uninformed public. No offence to John and Marstar.
Caveat emptor.
Cheers,
Bill
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CanAm
Canada Ammo - CGN Sponsor
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
The reality is, we must go by what has gone before. There are many guns which do not meet the definition of non-restricted on paper, yet the FRT states they are non-restricted, and they are imported and sold as such. We must rely on the FRT as it stands.
rtracer13
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Powell River, BC
What he is saying is that your sig tag Molon Labe is not taken to heart otherwise you'd be fighting it instead of just handing it over. Not saying you should or shouldn't fight it, but don't run the banner of Molon Labe if you aren't willing to fight.
Well, I know what you are saying Chris... a firearms importer can't take on all the burdens themselves, they have to rely on what it says in the FRT.
Unfortunately, that appears to be not good enough any more. The RCMP - it now seems - has the power to change the legal classification of any firearm at any time, if it sees fit to do so, and revoke the registration certificates for that firearm. In my view importers now must be careful to not give them more dodgy examples they can use to advance their agenda.
The Type 97A, the High Standard 10B, the BD38 and the BD3008 - they've gotten away with it (revocation of a previously accepted design) at least four times in just the last few YEARS! And, they have essentially ground approval of new military-type semi-autos to a standstill. It seems to me that there has been a grossly insufficient response to these game changing developments - at least in terms of people getting involved. Most people here seem to only care if they themselves can get ahold of the next black rifle toy coming down the pipe that they read about on CGN. That toy is never going to get here, folks, if we don't start to get better organized in our response to the RCMP's new self-appointed legislative power. (Note: CanAm Chris is one of the few people OR business who have been willing to do anything other than just roll over and hope for the best. CanAm puts its money and time where its mouth is, but we are going to need thousands more CanAm's in the coming years to counter the apathy that has allowed things to get this bad in Canadian firearms).
More revocations are coming, I am certain of that. I guess we all are at this point. My point in this post is that, I think there is a real responsibility on importers try and not bring in dodgy products that are just fueling the RCMP's reclassification agenda. I know there is only so much one business can do, but the RCMP is absolutely as crooked as a barrel of snakes and I in no way put it past them to let small numbers of restricted openbolt submachineguns go through to the public, when they know they can get them back later - thereby expanding their power and their role in the regulation of Canadian firearms. Order in Council? Who needs it now? We already have dictat's coming from the RCMP about what is and isn't prohibited now...and they have yet to suffer a single setback in this area.
The game for the coming years is... how do we deal them that one big setback?
Unfortunately, that appears to be not good enough any more. The RCMP - it now seems - has the power to change the legal classification of any firearm at any time, if it sees fit to do so, and revoke the registration certificates for that firearm. In my view importers now must be careful to not give them more dodgy examples they can use to advance their agenda.
The Type 97A, the High Standard 10B, the BD38 and the BD3008 - they've gotten away with it (revocation of a previously accepted design) at least four times in just the last few YEARS! And, they have essentially ground approval of new military-type semi-autos to a standstill. It seems to me that there has been a grossly insufficient response to these game changing developments - at least in terms of people getting involved. Most people here seem to only care if they themselves can get ahold of the next black rifle toy coming down the pipe that they read about on CGN. That toy is never going to get here, folks, if we don't start to get better organized in our response to the RCMP's new self-appointed legislative power. (Note: CanAm Chris is one of the few people OR business who have been willing to do anything other than just roll over and hope for the best. CanAm puts its money and time where its mouth is, but we are going to need thousands more CanAm's in the coming years to counter the apathy that has allowed things to get this bad in Canadian firearms).
More revocations are coming, I am certain of that. I guess we all are at this point. My point in this post is that, I think there is a real responsibility on importers try and not bring in dodgy products that are just fueling the RCMP's reclassification agenda. I know there is only so much one business can do, but the RCMP is absolutely as crooked as a barrel of snakes and I in no way put it past them to let small numbers of restricted openbolt submachineguns go through to the public, when they know they can get them back later - thereby expanding their power and their role in the regulation of Canadian firearms. Order in Council? Who needs it now? We already have dictat's coming from the RCMP about what is and isn't prohibited now...and they have yet to suffer a single setback in this area.
The game for the coming years is... how do we deal them that one big setback?
CanAm
Canada Ammo - CGN Sponsor
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Nothing dodgy will come in again, the RCMP are examining everything now
The big problem will be the guns that are here now, and have been for years. Next step is "variants"
Unfortunately, very few people file under s.74/75. They simple pack up the gun, say "oh well", and collect their cheque. The RCMP knows it. Gun owners in Canada are a very "compliant" group, for better or worse.
The big problem will be the guns that are here now, and have been for years. Next step is "variants"
Unfortunately, very few people file under s.74/75. They simple pack up the gun, say "oh well", and collect their cheque. The RCMP knows it. Gun owners in Canada are a very "compliant" group, for better or worse.
For worse, for far worse. People who give up their guns regardless of consequence deserve what they get. People who actually stand up and say NO, they are the ones that deserve our respect.
From what Ghostie says, a direct challenge doesnt sound too promising.
Yet, to meekly accept it only encourages more of the same.
Perhaps the answer is to take the $3500 and then buy two crates of SKS rifles, and sell or give them away to friends.
The end result being that one listed gun becomes 30 guns of unknown location.
At that point, the RCMP song about "its all about public safety" falls a bit flat.
Yet, to meekly accept it only encourages more of the same.
Perhaps the answer is to take the $3500 and then buy two crates of SKS rifles, and sell or give them away to friends.
The end result being that one listed gun becomes 30 guns of unknown location.
At that point, the RCMP song about "its all about public safety" falls a bit flat.
You have to choose your battles wisely...The BD38 is not remotely winnable. It's not a total loss either..."They" had to pay for these ones. How many have gone to the smelter and no compensation was payed? Use the money to fight the battles we have a chance of winning.
Russ...
Russ...
- Location
- God's Country. Nova Scotia
So much to say.......so many people to offend...............
Let's seperate ourselves from the "right to bear arms" mentality of our neighbours to the south. In Canada, we have no "right to bear arms". We aren't members of a militia living in the latter part of the eighteenth century. We have shown our knowledge of firearms and firearms safety through written and practical testing, via obtaining our PAL and largely becoming a member of an approved shooting club. We are "privileged" to operate certain classes of firearms.
Why do some individuals need/demand the latest "black toys" that crop up through the States or overseas? It's the little boy in us: bigger, better, meaner-looking. You know that they're going to be targeted by the RCMP, so why do you buy them? For the same reason that as kids, we touched the stove after mom told us not to.........
"Antique status" handguns won't be around for much longer, either. How long will it be, before certain handguns made prior to 1898 (that fire "obsolete" ammo) will be reclassified as Restricted weapons? Case in point is the Mauser C96 in 7.63 Mauser. Some made before 1898, but 7.63 Mauser is presently made by Fiocchi and God knows how many Eastern European manufacturers. The RCMP knows the difference between "obsolete" and "available" ammunition.
Those dark clouds on the horizon are a Liberal red. Depending on how you look at it, the worst is yet to come.
And by the way........stop watching those zombie shows. They'll give you a bad attitude.
Cheers,
Bill
Let's seperate ourselves from the "right to bear arms" mentality of our neighbours to the south. In Canada, we have no "right to bear arms". We aren't members of a militia living in the latter part of the eighteenth century. We have shown our knowledge of firearms and firearms safety through written and practical testing, via obtaining our PAL and largely becoming a member of an approved shooting club. We are "privileged" to operate certain classes of firearms.
Why do some individuals need/demand the latest "black toys" that crop up through the States or overseas? It's the little boy in us: bigger, better, meaner-looking. You know that they're going to be targeted by the RCMP, so why do you buy them? For the same reason that as kids, we touched the stove after mom told us not to.........
"Antique status" handguns won't be around for much longer, either. How long will it be, before certain handguns made prior to 1898 (that fire "obsolete" ammo) will be reclassified as Restricted weapons? Case in point is the Mauser C96 in 7.63 Mauser. Some made before 1898, but 7.63 Mauser is presently made by Fiocchi and God knows how many Eastern European manufacturers. The RCMP knows the difference between "obsolete" and "available" ammunition.
Those dark clouds on the horizon are a Liberal red. Depending on how you look at it, the worst is yet to come.
And by the way........stop watching those zombie shows. They'll give you a bad attitude.
Cheers,
Bill
Deckard
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chumperistani Gulag
Crate o SKS
/\
Awesomeness there. Pure FKem.
/\
Awesomeness there. Pure FKem.
Mr Bear
Member
- Location
- The Hammer
Au contraire, my liberal friend... Please read Mr Ed Burlows commentary on our right to bear arms (available on CSSA website). Our government would have us believe that we don't have these rights, but the British North America Act says we have similar rights to our American brothers 2nd Amendment. Thank God that there are people working to ensure that these rights are made known and exercised. Nothing wrong with Zombie bullets either, they are very aerodynamic and make excellent hunting rounds. Have a nice week while you are reading up on the rights of us not so hapless Canadians...
Deckard
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chumperistani Gulag
His post was a bit Kool Aid.
- Location
- Niagara
Gun grabber in disguise. Not a very good disguise. I can see straight through you.
CanAm
Canada Ammo - CGN Sponsor
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I only shoot semi-autos. I have little interest in bolt guns.
I also suggest you read Joyce Malcolm's book and English gun rights.
I also suggest you read Joyce Malcolm's book and English gun rights.
Bill, you are wrong. Those of us who buy up the "black toys" you describe are helping others who do not buy them to keep "their" firearms. The people "like you" who arbitrarily decide that we "don't need" or "shouldn't want" a certain type of firearm are the friends of the "Liberal red".
And by the way .........stop watching those Piers Morgan shows. They'll give you a dickhead attitude.
Cheers,
KeltecFan
Deckard
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chumperistani Gulag
My right to bear arms doesn't come from the USA, or its 2nd Amendment, or is it rooted in the Magna Carta. It doesn't come from Liberal Party, the NDP, or even the Conservatives. Its genesis was not in Quebec for damned sure because it isn't a boondoggle or a kickback. It's not traded for votes. It isn't granted by petty bureaucrats, and it will never be blessed by the Left's biased media. Hell, it has nothing to do with other gun owners-especially those who grovel and ask permission for everything. It's isn't debatable, negotiable, transferable, deniable, or revocable. Take a wild guess where my right to self defense comes from!
It's anybody's guess what I think of Bill's post.
It's anybody's guess what I think of Bill's post.
