recoil - what makes the difference?

mkaye

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in my mind i see the simple action/reaction
the more ft-lbs leaving the barrel the more reaction energy coming back the other way
the weight of the gun seems to be a big factor, but what about stock design and how it imparts that energy to your body
it seems like some smaller calibres i.e. 30-06 can kick a lot harder than the larger ones - is it just the gun weight?

mark
 
Recoil

Excellent question. And yes, there is a lot more to it than just action/reaction. Shape of the stock has a lot to do with it. A stock with quite a bit of drop at the heal seems to kick harder. I found the lever action model 88 Winchester in 308 to be very uncomfortable. The stock would come up and hit my cheek.
A good sized forend on the stock allows the left hand (right handed shooter) to take up a considerable amount of the recoil, without even thinking about it.
Until well into the 1960s we didn't have proper ear protection. When we got ear muffs we found out our rifles kicked a lot less!!
 
More grains of powder = more kick . That is why magnums kick more.

Shooting off-hand is the easiest on your body.... try shooting any .30 cal rifle prone ( on your belly ) with a standard big game hunting load , ouch

Semi-autos have less kick as they use some of the recoil to chamber the next round.
 
What about length and diameter of the barrel (for carrying exhaust fumes away)?

My thinking is that the more room there is for the energy to go out the barrel with the bullet, the less there is for recoil in the opposite direction.

I notice this with my Nagant. It is loud as hell and will give you a muzzle flash that'll make the tree huggers think there are solar flares in the bush, but it kicks less than my .22 magnum and 30-30.

Surely this supports the energy out the front - less recoil argument?
 
Recoil is nothing to a real man. :p

BRNO 20" carbine .375 H&H, 3 shots rapid fire with Federal 300 gr softpoints.

Ahem......yes I am wearing a PAST sissy pad. :redface:

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/pbgeologist/?action=view&current=S5000013-1.flv

Here's the 2 1/8" group I shot at 25 yards.

S5000014.jpg
 
The amount you shoot is also a major factor. I shoot every week and hardly notice recoil anymore. Another big help is the curved steel buttplate on my old Winchesters. It spreads out the pressure around my upper arm (where the curved buttplate should be planted) much better than the typical modern shotgun butt. Another major factor is whether you are shooting sitting down leaning into it, or shooting offhand. Shooting offhand, recoil is almost non-existent (I shoot a 45-70 using 405 grain bullets for most of my shooting).
 
I have found that some calibres seem to push back when recoiling and some really seem to have more snap. I don't like the snappy ones as much.
 
I don't claim to be an expert, just bringing off the top of my head high school physics,coupled with a few google searches. Actual energy imparted to the shooter is, well, pretty simple.

Newtons 3rd Law of Motion will always apply: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We're attempting to push this little peice of lead from motionless into high speed, and so it pushes back, it has to. A 150 grain .308 overtop 60 some odd grains of powder will push back a constant amount, whether it's out of a 6.5 pound gun or a 15lb. But, since that bullet has to push on that gun, the gun itself will push back until it has to move. When it moves, it gives us felt recoil. Lighter (less mass) guns are easier to move, transfering more energy to the person pulling the trigger.

Put a bigger peice of lead on the end of that, and you'd find (even if you can't feel it too readily) that there would be more felt recoil. Since you are trying to push a heavier object (more mass), it will take more force to move it, therefore pushing back with more force. Increase the mass of the lead in the same gun, (i.e. 220gr vs. 150gr .308) you may find a slower kick, rather than a sharper one (if the powder charge remains the same) since it will not accelerate as fast. When we up the powder content, say in a .300 Wby Mag with 150gr leads, we'll probably find not only a harder kick (more felt recoil) in the same wieght (mass) gun, but a sharper one as well. We're taking the same bullet but accelerating it much faster.

Conventional means of controlling a a harsh kicking rifle, say large magnums with a few hundred grains of lead to push out, plus a large powder charge is to make a heavier gun, since (imho) it presents simpler way to reduce felt recoil. You are pushing more mass, with more energy and therefore, it has to push back more. Simple way around that, make the gun push back more, therefore pushing you less. Until you have to hike for miles and miles.

As Monashee stated, automatic and semi automatic's use the guns energy (gas or inertia) again to cycle the action. This means less energy is transferred to the shooter. Like more gun mass, this only reduces felt recoil. The same hunk o' lead over the same amount of powder will still produce the same push backwards when touched off. Same with a muzzle brake, it uses the expanding gas coming out of the barrel to reduce felt recoil by just pushing the gun forward, in a fashion. Another, yet perhaps just as punishing as heavy recoil, way of managing it.

Glyn, I can't find anything mathematical that would support your theory other than being a longer and bigger barrel, it would just add mass to the gun, and mass being a large part of the picture. But, it certainly open up the characteristics of recoil due to overall gun design as compared to mass/energy relationships.

What can't be found too readily in text books and google searches is what H4831 talks about. Stock design. I almost picked up a book today at Nosale about gun fitting, and I kind of wish I had now. This part gets me interested. My Dad's Parker Hale .303 also kicks up, a lot more than my Lee Enfield .303, with the forestock all 'sporterized' Same action, different stock. We also had a Parker Hale in a .270, (not the Lee Enfield action) a long time ago, which did not kick up, as my Dads did. Stock design does play a major part it in, but so far all I've learned has come from small bits of first hand experience. I can see how a large drop at the heal as mentioned can change the direction of the recoil. I've read before that the Win88, even in .308 has more of a kick than most people would anticipate, but never having handled or fired this gun, I can't say for sure. H4831, have you found other guns with similar shaped stocks to fire this way as well? I'm going to take a look at my Dad's PH and compare a little to the other guns we have, and see if it has more drop as well.
As to actually kicking harder, mathematically it's.. Well, I hate to say impossible, but with equations that have been around and proven for so long.. Well, you get the point. That's one thing about physics. All the math in the world can say otherwise, but when she kicks, she just kicks.

Jesus, this is too long. I think I'm done for a little while.
 
"...What about length and diameter of the barrel..." Adds more weight. More weight helps reduce the felt recoil.
The design of the stock can alter how the recoil is distributed ove ryour shoulder. A wide butt stock helps. Notice the difference between a milsurp .303 and one with an aftermarket stock using the same ammo. The narrow milsurp has more felt recoil because the recoil isn't spread over a silghtly wider area. The actual recoil is the same though.
So the stock design and the weight of the rifle matter. It's how the recoil is distributed and absorbed.
 
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