Recommend me a 165 grain. REVIVAL!

I looked at tradex last night. Anybody have experience with the 165 grain Sierra HPBT? Heard they're tough

I've shot the Sierra 165 gr HPBT, in both the .30/06 and a .300 Winchester. Loaded at full steam in a .300 Winchester they aren't very tough, but at .308 or .30/06 velocities I'd rate them as a good deer or a barren land caribou bullet, but they don't consistently penetrate deeply enough for larger game IMHO and seem to give up after a foot or so. It seems to me that they don't shoot as flat as pointed bullets of the same weight, due to the large open point, but I've lost the records which would now be 30 years old. Checking on JBM when both are fired at 2850, the Sierra only has an inch more drop at 300 than the 165 gr SPBT Hornady, so perhaps I was mistaken about the trajectory, an inch at 300 yards has no practical significance. Back when I lived down south, I thought highly of the Hornady 165 gr SPBT, which was my go to bullet in the .30/06 I carried then, not only are they affordable by comparison, and accurate, they can do anything that can reasonably be expected of a cup and lead core 165 gr .30 caliber bullet. If you need a 165 gr bullet to do more, then you need to shoot Accubonds, or move up to 180 or 190 gr bullets.

When discussing the terminal performance of bullets, when you gain something in one direction, you tend to loose something else in another. Through and through penetration is a good example of this. While I am a believer in the concept that a bullet can't break what it can't reach, one of the benefits that high velocity fragile bullets have is the absolute destruction of what it does reach, with a very large crush diameter 4"-8" sometimes more. Obviously, death with a properly placed bullet of this type results in a fast humane death, provided its combined with sufficient penetration. Think sledgehammers and mosquitoes.

When the high velocity fragile bullet concept is taken too far though, the result is a shallow messy wound that causes much suffering, but is not immediately fatal. I have witnessed this on more than one occasion, and it sickens me, and I'll never be the cause of it again. Consider if you will, that a bullet has two velocities, linear and rotational. Where the linear velocity decays rapidly, the rotational velocity changes little through the time of flight. Once the bullet jacket is compromised, the the centrifugal forces from the high rotational velocity try to tear it apart; if the jacket is thin, or the lead core not physically restrained, it will. Likewise, a pointed bullet that fails to expand, penetrates deeply, but the bullet path follows the least resistance, where straight line penetrations is much more desirable. These too tend to create miserable wounds, which is why military FMJs are prohibited almost everywhere. An example of pointed bullets that don't expand in game are of course FMJ military bullets, in some circumstances monometal bullets, and match bullets that are not annealed. When they are annealed they tend to be too fragile when the impact velocity is high, so their usefulness in hunting is limited to that which requires long range shooting. I think its unfortunate that proper big game solids are so often lumped in with legislation that's aimed at military FMJs. The excellent flat nose, with parallel sides, and short for caliber big game solid, creates wide entrance and exit wounds, penetrates in a straight line regardless of whether bone or soft tissue is impacted, and creates havoc in its wake. They are not made in calibers smaller than .366, and many bullet manufactures don't make them in calibers smaller than .375. Unlike expanding bullet that expand more rapidly the higher the impact velocity, reducing their penetration, the faster a big game solid impacts, the greater the penetration. Its been argued that level of performance is unnecessary on North American game, but the ability to shoot through the length of an animal has its place.

So when choosing game bullets we must find a compromise. The compromise bullet tends to hold together until well inside the target before it erupts, but is less inclined to shed weight, than a fragile bullet, and penetrates less than a solid. Penetration is controlled by a combination of bullet construction and impact velocity. Because so few shots are normally taken at game, the cost of the bullet doesn't matter very much, provided we can find an affordable bullet with similar trajectory with which to practice. Choose your bullet weight by the density of what you hunt, Dogleg coined it perfectly when he said light-fast bullets for light-fast animals, big slow bullets for big slow animals. In .30 caliber, 130-150gr for smaller species of big game like antelope, wolves, and small deer, 150-180 gr for large deer, black bear, Canadian moose, and elk, and 180-240 gr for big bears and Alaska-Yukon moose. Now that the weight of the bullet has been determined, what about it's construction? Again, taking Dogleg's sage advice, for fast light animals, a cup and lead core bullet like a Ballistic Tip, for large big game a controlled expansion bullet like a Partition or an A-frame would be hard to beat, and the same would apply for heavy and dangerous big game, although we might opt for a bonded bullet.

IMHO, mono-metals have limited usefulness. I've heard from too many hunters and outfitters of long experience who have observed less than stellar performance from these things. I know, others who swear by them rather than at them, so lets say the results are 50-50. That doesn't encourage me towards monos very much, where never a disparaging word is heard against Partitions, which combine the benefits of the expanding front section and nonexpanding rear. Where I do have faith in monos is when they are loaded in cartridges with diameters greater than .366". A pair .50 caliber 570 gr X bullets didn't do my Tanzanian buffalo much good, but the impact velocity was probably only 2000 fps and the expansion of the recovered bullet was just a hair short of an inch after penetrating 32". Where I use monos today is in my wife's .30/06, where I load 180s at 2500. This is not a very fast load as 180 gr .30/06s go, but it is fired effectively from a 6 pound rifle by a woman, it will penetrate, and her not being a hunter, her rifle is strictly for use as a bear defense gun. The idea is that the range will be within 30' and the bullet must punch through the bone of the skull, spine, shoulder, or hip. I'm confident they will do that, and whether or not the petals break off doesn't have a huge bearing on what happens next. I'm treating these as I would a small bore solid, which is essentially what a mono is once the front third of the bullet, which forms the petals, has broken off. The 240 gr Woodleighs, were my first choice, but they won't stabilize from her 1:12 twist barrel.
 
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But that was a 165 grain out of a 308 eh? I'm assuming from a boat anchor with a 24" barrel as well?

Was shooting Hornady American Whitetail 165gr interlock, shot out of a 20” heavy barreled Howa 1500. Hit him around 75-80yds, upwards facing quartering away position. He made it 45yds, and went down like a sac of potatoes. Good double lung hit, I will use them again. I bought a couple boxes in the spring before ammo started flying off the shelves. Seeing fairly good 100y to 200y groups with it for factory ammo
 
I've shot the Sierra 165 gr HPBT, in both the .30/06 and a .300 Winchester. Loaded at full steam in a .300 Winchester they aren't very tough, but at .308 or .30/06 velocities I'd rate them as a good deer or a barren land caribou bullet, but they don't consistently penetrate deeply enough for larger game IMHO and seem to give up after a foot or so. It seems to me that they don't shoot as flat as pointed bullets of the same weight, due to the large open point, but I've lost the records which would now be 30 years old. Checking on JBM when both are fired at 2850, the Sierra only has an inch more drop at 300 than the 165 gr SPBT Hornady, so perhaps I was mistaken about the trajectory, an inch at 300 yards has no practical significance. Back when I lived down south, I thought highly of the Hornady 165 gr SPBT, which was my go to bullet in the .30/06 I carried then, not only are they affordable by comparison, and accurate, they can do anything that can reasonably be expected of a cup and lead core 165 gr .30 caliber bullet. If you need a 165 gr bullet to do more, then you need to shoot Accubonds, or move up to 180 or 190 gr bullets.

When discussing the terminal performance of bullets, when you gain something in one direction, you tend to loose something else in another. Through and through penetration is a good example of this. While I am a believer in the concept that a bullet can't break what it can't reach, one of the benefits that high velocity fragile bullets have is the absolute destruction of what it does reach, with a very large crush diameter 4"-8" sometimes more. Obviously, death with a properly placed bullet of this type results in a fast humane death, provided its combined with sufficient penetration. Think sledgehammers and mosquitoes.

When the high velocity fragile bullet concept is taken too far though, the result is a shallow messy wound that causes much suffering, but is not immediately fatal. I have witnessed this on more than one occasion, and it sickens me, and I'll never be the cause of it again. Consider if you will, that a bullet has two velocities, linear and rotational. Where the linear velocity decays rapidly, the rotational velocity changes little through the time of flight. Once the bullet jacket is compromised, the the centrifugal forces from the high rotational velocity try to tear it apart; if the jacket is thin, or the lead core not physically restrained, it will. Likewise, a pointed bullet that fails to expand, penetrates deeply, but the bullet path follows the least resistance, where straight line penetrations is much more desirable. These too tend to create miserable wounds, which is why military FMJs are prohibited almost everywhere. An example of pointed bullets that don't expand in game are of course FMJ military bullets, in some circumstances monometal bullets, and match bullets that are not annealed. When they are annealed they tend to be too fragile when the impact velocity is high, so their usefulness in hunting is limited to that which requires long range shooting. I think its unfortunate that proper big game solids are so often lumped in with legislation that's aimed at military FMJs. The excellent flat nose, with parallel sides, and short for caliber big game solid, creates wide entrance and exit wounds, penetrates in a straight line regardless of whether bone or soft tissue is impacted, and creates havoc in its wake. They are not made in calibers smaller than .366, and many bullet manufactures don't make them in calibers smaller than .375. Unlike expanding bullet that expand more rapidly the higher the impact velocity, reducing their penetration, the faster a big game solid impacts, the greater the penetration. Its been argued that level of performance is unnecessary on North American game, but the ability to shoot through the length of an animal has its place.

So when choosing game bullets we must find a compromise. The compromise bullet tends to hold together until well inside the target before it erupts, but is less inclined to shed weight, than a fragile bullet, and penetrates less than a solid. Penetration is controlled by a combination of bullet construction and impact velocity. Because so few shots are normally taken at game, the cost of the bullet doesn't matter very much, provided we can find an affordable bullet with similar trajectory with which to practice. Choose your bullet weight by the density of what you hunt, Dogleg coined it perfectly when he said light-fast bullets for light-fast animals, big slow bullets for big slow animals. In .30 caliber, 130-150gr for smaller species of big game like antelope, wolves, and small deer, 150-180 gr for large deer, black bear, Canadian moose, and elk, and 180-240 gr for big bears and Alaska-Yukon moose. Now that the weight of the bullet has been determined, what about it's construction? Again, taking Dogleg's sage advice, for fast light animals, a cup and lead core bullet like a Ballistic Tip, for large big game a controlled expansion bullet like a Partition or an A-frame would be hard to beat, and the same would apply for heavy and dangerous big game, although we might opt for a bonded bullet.

IMHO, mono-metals have limited usefulness. I've heard from too many hunters and outfitters of long experience who have observed less than stellar performance from these things. I know, others who swear by them rather than at them, so lets say the results are 50-50. That doesn't encourage me towards monos very much, where never a disparaging word is heard against Partitions, which combine the benefits of the expanding front section and nonexpanding rear. Where I do have faith in monos is when they are loaded in cartridges with diameters greater than .366". A pair .50 caliber 570 gr X bullets didn't do my Tanzanian buffalo much good, but the impact velocity was probably only 2000 fps and the expansion of the recovered bullet was just a hair short of an inch after penetrating 32". Where I use monos today is in my wife's .30/06, where I load 180s at 2500. This is not a very fast load as 180 gr .30/06s go, but it is fired effectively from a 6 pound rifle by a woman, it will penetrate, and her not being a hunter, her rifle is strictly for use as a bear defense gun. The idea is that the range will be within 30' and the bullet must punch through the bone of the skull, spine, shoulder, or hip. I'm confident they will do that, and whether or not the petals break off doesn't have a huge bearing on what happens next. I'm treating these as I would a small bore solid, which is essentially what a mono is once the front third of the bullet, which forms the petals, has broken off. The 240 gr Woodleighs, were my first choice, but they won't stabilize from her 1:12 twist barrel.

That was a huge read, but very informative. I'm probably justjust gonna go with partitions for penetrations sake and whack the tips off, or not. I won't use monos in anything I own. I've tracked 3 deer for 3 different people shot with barnes bullets a LONG WAY (100+ yards) before finding them or even finding any blood. I spit on those things
 
You again Dave! Guess I gotta load her up with the partitions now since your words are gospel. Partitions it is!thank you my good sir... one question though, how bad do them tips get banged up in a magazine?

They will suffer damage in the magazine, but if you remove the exposed lead, you will sacrifice very little in the BC of the bullet, and the tips will all be the same.

As has been commented on here already, minor tip damage seems to have little effect on accuracy or function. The esthetics are the problem, I'm guessing.

Nosler actually made [makes?] a protected tip Partition, with no exposed lead, but only in 180 grain .308 diameter, AFAIK. Shoot those Noslers with confidence! Dave.
 
A thought - bullet tips get "mangled"/ flattened when they can beat themselves against front wall of the magazine under recoil - companies like BSA put strips into their sporter conversions of M1917 magazines to hold the cartridges back from doing that - US Army was using hard ball in their M1917, so did not have much problem, but BSA must have thought the soft points that hunter's would use need help. Just a strip soldered or riveted to mag walls, slightly ahead of where the cartridge shoulder would sit - perhaps .050 thick or so? Then, if your feeding process is damaging the tips, may need to adjust or refine the loading ramp within your rifle, so the ogive rides up the ramp, not the tip? No reason to think that a pointy 150 grain or a round nose 180 grain would use the same geometry to feed?
 
Was shooting Hornady American Whitetail 165gr interlock, shot out of a 20” heavy barreled Howa 1500. Hit him around 75-80yds, upwards facing quartering away position. He made it 45yds, and went down like a sac of potatoes. Good double lung hit, I will use them again. I bought a couple boxes in the spring before ammo started flying off the shelves. Seeing fairly good 100y to 200y groups with it for factory ammo

20" inch barrel, very nice, couple guys in my gang hunt with 20" barrelled 308 BLR's. They both use 150 grain core lokts... man do they make a mess of deer when they get into mag dumps with them bullets. I'm gonna get a load worked up with the 165 grain interlocks then switch to partitions for her hunting loads.

They will suffer damage in the magazine, but if you remove the exposed lead, you will sacrifice very little in the BC of the bullet, and the tips will all be the same.

As has been commented on here already, minor tip damage seems to have little effect on accuracy or function. The esthetics are the problem, I'm guessing.

Nosler actually made [makes?] a protected tip Partition, with no exposed lead, but only in 180 grain .308 diameter, AFAIK. Shoot those Noslers with confidence! Dave.

I suppose it's the aesthetics of it. Makes me feel better when everything's even and looks tight I guess. But I'm for sure decided on the 165 grain partitions after your recommendation! If they'll pass through a moose at our at times not so perfect angles and shots, then I got absolute confidence they'll plow in and out of a deer no matter the shot!

Nosler does make a protected point, more of a semi Spitzer in 180, but a 180 would be pretty slow in her 308 especially being a carbine.

Thanks again Dave!!
 
Nosler Accubond 165gr.

I loaded some up for this season - had no trouble sighting in two Savage 10TR's with 3 rounds each.

Edit: I know 160gr NAB's mushroom well when loaded in 7mm RM
 
The Speer 165 hot cor are solid. In my experience they hold together....... almost too well.
I can't seem too find them anywhere. Can't find reloder 16 anywhere either.

Nosler Accubond 165gr.

I loaded some up for this season - had no trouble sighting in two Savage 10TR's with 3 rounds each.

Edit: I know 160gr NAB's mushroom well when loaded in 7mm RM

I've got the 160's loaded in my 280. How's those 165's work on critters?
 
No critters seen this year to fire the 165's at. It was either to warm or they have all been shot. Only saw a little guy as I drove up to the hunting land.

10 years ago I dropped a decent sized buck at 100 yards. The bullet went through the front right leg, rib bone, heart, rib bone again with a loonie sized exit hole. I figure it held together pretty well considering the 160gr/7mm factory load is supposed to leave the barrel at 3050fps.

I am more impressed by the ease of sighting in. Start with cheap stuff to get on paper, then zero with a few $1.40 NAB's.
 
The Sciroccos are about half the price. (100 in the box instead of 50)

But they're still $100+ a box which is absolutely ludacris. If you could give me a hell of a sales pitch to tell me how they're any different from any other bonded bullet in their weight and caliber you might talk me into it.
 
But they're still $100+ a box which is absolutely ludacris. If you could give me a hell of a sales pitch to tell me how they're any different from any other bonded bullet in their weight and caliber you might talk me into it.

Ok. ;)

We were doing some population control shooting of reds and fallows, and as is my nature I was playing with bullets again. I was using a .257 Weatherby as a zero to 600 (with a few 700s) utility gun. It's not what you would pick to win "King Penetrator of the Universe", but fun and being able watch your own hits has certain advantages.

The goal was to selectively kill females, including sorting out the ### on calves without hitting the wrong one or wounding or killing the wrong one that was standing behind the right one. There were instances though, where the right two would line up and my spotter would call for a Two-fer. It became a bit of a game, and I never once found a recovered 100 grain Scirocco 11 in the second animal never mind the first. They still hit with a hellofa whack; not Ballistic tip or Berger hard but plenty hard enough. Completely different than TTSXs which are akin to popping a pig with a pellet gun.

Moving up a notch; a 130 Scirroco in a 270 'bee has proven to be equally adept at pulverizing coyotes, smacking around New Zealand goats and putting exit holes through bull elk the size of two of my fists. Haven't found one of those yet either.

With your .308 you would do just fine with an Interlock or Ballistic tip on deer sized animals; but that wasn't the question.

How did I do? ;)
 
After hitting a WT deer last season with a 165BT from a 30/06, can't see the need for anything else. Dropped like a sack of potatoes and lungs turned to jelly.
 
$100/box is no different than Interbonds last I saw. Also box of 100. Seems reasonable if the performance is there.

I’m interested to try the Interbond/Accubond/Sciroccos if they really perform as advertised and also hold onto their lead. I just no longer want lead fragments dispersing through my critters. Smearing on wound channel is one thing but fragments I’m done with.

Obviously to the original point none of the premium bullets are necessary on deer sized game. Traditional cup and cores work beautifully and usually exit when appropriate weights are selected.
 
Ok. ;)

We were doing some population control shooting of reds and fallows, and as is my nature I was playing with bullets again. I was using a .257 Weatherby as a zero to 600 (with a few 700s) utility gun. It's not what you would pick to win "King Penetrator of the Universe", but fun and being able watch your own hits has certain advantages.

The goal was to selectively kill females, including sorting out the ### on calves without hitting the wrong one or wounding or killing the wrong one that was standing behind the right one. There were instances though, where the right two would line up and my spotter would call for a Two-fer. It became a bit of a game, and I never once found a recovered 100 grain Scirocco 11 in the second animal never mind the first. They still hit with a hellofa whack; not Ballistic tip or Berger hard but plenty hard enough. Completely different than TTSXs which are akin to popping a pig with a pellet gun.

Moving up a notch; a 130 Scirroco in a 270 'bee has proven to be equally adept at pulverizing coyotes, smacking around New Zealand goats and putting exit holes through bull elk the size of two of my fists. Haven't found one of those yet either.

With your .308 you would do just fine with an Interlock or Ballistic tip on deer sized animals; but that wasn't the question.

How did I do? ;)
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So a 150 scirocco outta a 308 should more or less go end to end on a deer? Definitely exit on whatever angle that is reasonably presented ya? Or go 165 just to make sure?

$100/box is no different than Interbonds last I saw. Also box of 100. Seems reasonable if the performance is there.

I’m interested to try the Interbond/Accubond/Sciroccos if they really perform as advertised and also hold onto their lead. I just no longer want lead fragments dispersing through my critters. Smearing on wound channel is one thing but fragments I’m done with.

Obviously to the original point none of the premium bullets are necessary on deer sized game. Traditional cup and cores work beautifully and usually exit when appropriate weights are selected.
A 150 grain interbond won't exit on a broadside 180 pound deer at 60 yards out of a 300 savage. Deer only went 20 yards though.
 

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