recommendations for a cnc mill

thanx again guys,
If I have to spend BIG dollars, hell, no worries, I am a believer in the right tool for the job kind of mentality.
BUT for my purposes, I think something in the higher end of the cnc hobby mills will get me by untill the big machines can take over.
Idea is to run off some product samples/prototypes, working from my designs. If the items make it off the designing table...... I will need to look into a larger more efficient set up for production. I just have to buy the stuff..... one of my "elves" is the cnc programmer/operator .... kids a fricken genius :D and he'll work for gun parts LOL
 
You can get a good used Bridgeport for a couple grand. There are companies in the States that make retrofit kits specific to Bridgeport for about $4000US. So you wouldn't be far off your $5000 to start. You will probably need a computer and some software to top it off.

Your ideas are very doable and don't be discouraged by the negative comments. I am looking for the same thing. If you aren't looking at production, or making a living at it, you don't need to spend 10s of thousands of dollars.

.........and just for all of the negative Nancy's out there :) , you don't need $50,000 to buy a new machine. You can get a 3 axis Kent at KBC for $28,000. With the current state of the economy I know of a few large machine shops in Ontario that are closing. The equipment there is going to go very cheap.
 
Oh yeah, check out auctionadvertiser.com as well. You will find lots of machinery auctions. Not sure if it is Ontario only, but there must be something similar out your way.
 
funny thing.... my brother in law is in the business of buying and selling used equipment.... from cats and excavators to entire computer controlled production machinery..... will see what he can source for me by way of a used milling set up with cnc.

I am not taking these comments as anything but each persons personal view.... for or against the idea i have is of no concern. I am not insulted by those with differing opinions...... experience counts and IF you truly have it..... then i'm interested in your thoughts regardless if you are telling me i'm going down the wrong path. ;)
 
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You might want to look into school boards that may be updating their machine shop school equipment. I am not sure how you would go about it though. But I did see somehting along this line about a year or so ago while surfing the net.
 
so here's what i want to be able to do
skeletonized action inlets in 7075 and 6061 aluminum
picatinny rail in bulk lengths aluminum/steel
engraving/lettering
small parts n such......
Reading what you want to do and that you want to spend under $5000 on the CNC machine does not instill any confidence in anything you plan to make.

If you plan to do quality work that people will want to pay you for, you need to spend the money. The CNC machine you choose is going to effect everything you make. Buy a cheap, garbage machine and your parts will be cheap garbage. Any machine for under $5000 isn't going to make you a single cent. You'll be pulling your hair out and producing paper weights.

Also keep in mind that you will spend the price of the machine, or more, on tooling. The CNC machine is often the cheapest part of the process. The cost of tooling and work holding is going to make you cry. Also, tooling isn't a one time thing, you have to keep spending money on it.

Have a look at Haas, they have great customer support, very user friendly machines, and some decent prices. Their toolroom series machines are perfect for small shops as they combine manual controls with CNC. I'd also look at leasing over buying, or buying used.

I may seem harsh but you'll thank me some day. Or curse yourself for not heeding my advice.
 
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hear ya loud n clear armedsask ....

but bear in mind.... I want the mini mill for my R&D purposes NOT for production for sale purposes..... when i get to that stage..... I'll be dumpin some coin for the real deal.
barrel work is not high on my list at this time..... I'll deal with the lathe hurdle when i get there.
for now, a compact, cnc equipped mill with controller and software is what I'm shopping for.
most of the items i'll be making are small, several inches around kinda thing and from 6061 aluminum. If a prototype gets past the cutting room.... and heads to market..... it will be run on some professional equipment, either by myself or i'll farm it out to someone so equipped.

so.... let's not worry so much about the fine details..... let's just discuss the merits or short comings of what's availlable for 5000 to 8000 .... new , used ect.
 
At the minimum, I'd get a good, reputable used manual mill that has been converted to CNC. That's a minimum. You're looking at spending at least $10,000.

Now double that to $20,000 to include tooling and work holding.
 
At the minimum, I'd get a good, reputable used manual mill that has been converted to CNC. That's a minimum. You're looking at spending at least $10,000.

Now double that to $20,000 to include tooling and work holding.

I like it when you chime in on topics with your advice :D betwen you and CyberK and a couple others...... i know who some of the "been there done that" people are on this site if ya catch my drift.

I'm gonna start doing my research and maybe i'll throw the ideas i get up here .... i know you guys will keep me "real"

cheers ;)
 
Just to get a better idea of things, do you have any machining and/or CNC training?

Personally, if I was to do what you are planning, I'd look at contracting your work. With the slow down of the oilfield and the crash of the auto industry, there are a LOT of shops looking for work.

It's much cheaper to have some one else do the work, plus they know what they are doing.
 
I'm a (former) steel fabricator by trade ...... but...... I hang with 3rd class engineers, a few machinists/cnc operators (BIG stuff though) and have made by hand and with power tools....... many items i needed out of steel and aluminum.... plastic.... whatever. I have operated several lathes from standard metal lathes with 3/4 ft bed to custom applications on a massive 25 footer .... no cnc though

BUT to answer your question... I am not a trained cnc operator but i learn fast , eerily fast for some folks...... :D I gots borned that way ;) and I have several friends to help me on the way.
 
Don't take any of my comments to mean that you shouldn't do it. I think you should. Just do it right. Beware of the armchair gunsmiths/machinists.
 
Don't take any of my comments to mean that you shouldn't do it. I think you should. Just do it right. Beware of the armchair gunsmiths/machinists.

point taken.... thanx..... and I know what you mean..... I build m14's hehehe lot's of them armchair folks around LOL. I believe in the do it right or go home method of practice. I am enrolling in a entry CNC course and will upgrade from there , hopefully learning on my own machine outside of the classroom...... uggghhhh more trade school..... no.... i swore i wouldn't.... 9 years was enough. HAHAHAHA it never ends does it?

cheers guys and thanx
:cheers:
 
I want the mini mill for my R&D purposes NOT for production for sale purposes

Then you probably don't need a CNC machine. It is more than possible to make very uniform parts on manual machinery.

The big killer with CNC is getting the machine and tooling properly set up and everything touched off and zero'd. You are going to have to do that every time the part changes.

If you spend the money on the software, generally converting from the CAD drawing to the code is not too painful but without that fairly expensive software it can be.
 
I had a look at the sherline mini mill. I wonder how much travel it has. Seems perfect for engraving.

Busy Bee Tools has milling machines with digital readout on sale. Maybe a bit big, I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you got a standard milling machine, but later decided you really wanted a CNC mill, I think there is a way to convert it by replacing the rotating wheels with CNC motors. I have no idea how. You'd only have 11" by 7" of travel though.

Youtube has got some cool videos of people making their own mills.

Best of luck with your project, please do let us know what you decide.
 
At the minimum, I'd get a good, reputable used manual mill that has been converted to CNC. That's a minimum. You're looking at spending at least $10,000.

Now double that to $20,000 to include tooling and work holding.

I think if you just go to a shop and say "set me up" you will be looking spending at least $10,000. If you shop around I think you can do it for considerably less. With the state of things these days there are equipment auctions popping up all over the place. I think a good tight Bridgeport, properly converted, could be had for under $8000.

I agree with you on the tooling though. I am finally set up to do rebarrelling, and it took me a year to gather up all the tooling and get sufficient practice to feel confident doing it. I do this part time and didn't have the cash up front to pour into it, but that job alone needs a minimum of $1000 worth of quality tooling to complete. I am sure you can do it with less, but one thing I learned early was to not skimp on cutters etc. It will give you more headaches than it is worth.
 
Depending on what you want to do and are capable of, yourself, $5K can be pretty realistic.

As an example, there is (was?) a Tree Journeyman CNC mill with control issues, on the Vancouver craigslist for under $2k. From that basis, you have the options of learning the control innards, and fixing it, retrofitting or replacing the control, or converting to Mach or EMC (Mach is cheap, $150 or so, runs on Windows, EMC is Linux based, free, and quite a powerful tool, but with a steep learning curve)

A bud had a Shizoku mill (Japanese made, rock solid machine), bought off Ebay, converted and running Mach 3, making good parts. He was well under $10K tooled and producing.

A few months back (Can $ at par, time frame), I saw a Haas VF-1, mid 90's vintage, reasonable hours, 20 tool changer, 40 toolholders asst'd, on offer for $10K. Given the ease and cheapness of rebuilding a Haas machine, the cost of ownership on something like that is pretty reasonable, if you want a machine that can produce for you instead of just something that you can have sitting waiting for an odd job to come up. It was a running, ready to use, machine.

You gotta decide what you need for your purposes before you go shopping, though.

If you want to have the most flexibility, best ease of set-up, an open machine is probably your best bet. If you want to produce volume, and not have chips on the walls and ceiling, and enclosed machine may be better.

For one-of work, where the setup has to be knocked down and reset for each job, look at a decent manual machine. Helical milling is pretty easy. Set-up is the slow part. After that, its just crank the handles (or let the powerfeed do it). A universal table is nice to have, but really not a requirement until you start making things like your own drills and mill cutter blanks, where you need something closer to theoretical perfect profiles. Any Bridgeport style machine would be good for general stuff like that. Especially the decorative stuff like helical milling. Not rocket science, just time consuming and a bit fiddly to set up.
Universal dividing heads don't draw much money on Ebay, as they are a PITA to ship, but are still cheaper by far than buying one at a dealer, most of the time.

If you are looking for a machine that you can make a living with, producing large quantities of "stuff", spend the money appropriate your needs. If you want a machine that can do a bunch of different stuff, without a huge investment, those machines are around, and can be got cheap if you figure out what to look for, and you do a realistic assessment of need vs. want.

The "hobby" machines can make good parts, and the price of admission is low, but they are not in the same class as the commercial stuff.

Still, I think they would be worth assessing on their own merits. Worts case scenario (well, maybe not "worst" case, as in, it burns to the ground, worst case) is that you pick up a new hobby grade CNC machine, and learn a lot about set-up and operations from it, and then decide to sell it off for something more suitable for your needs later, or shunt it aside to put it to use for light work like engraving.

I deal a fair bit with both the hobby side, and work in a mostly manual machine shop full of good tools. I also run a faily old (early 90's) Milltronics open style mill, doing whatever we need to do on it, mostly programming with GibbsCam.
If you learn to use a lightweight machine to make parts, you will really appreciate the abilities of a heavy and rigid machine. You will make better parts, too, as you will have learned the value of good set-ups and proper tooling, IMO. Once you learn to make the machine do what you want it to, then you work on making it do it faster! :)

Checked out cnczone yet?

Cheers
Trev
 
Cnc

$5000.00 is a pretty tight budget but it can be done if you shop around , we just sold a decent Bridgeport ram type mill with a Fanuc controll for $4500.00 without tooling , If you go to www.bobcad.com you can download a free version of their programming soft ware , it works well for simple tasks , but if you want to do splines etc, you would have to purchase some software , only advise i would give you on a purchaseing a used machine or even one of the newer hobbey type cnc machines would be getting repair parts for the cnc controll if it were to break down , i have heard a few horror stories from folks who have purchased some of the hobbiy stuff haveing a lot of difficulty getting repair parts for controlls etc when they break down , and some of the older controllers out there such as Anilam and some of the Hitachi Seki are in short supply and not supported any more from the manufactures. i personally would look around for a used Hass , they are very user freindly and hold a decent tollarence for their cost , we have a Hass mini mill for working on our small parts and it does a good job. So shop around there are a lot of good deals out there just be carefull of what you buy , its easy for a seller to clean up a tool and give it a paint job to make it look new :cool:
 
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