Red dot sights

KDX

KDX

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I was over on Glock Talk and was reading a post from a guy who had poor eye sight and he bought a TSD Combat Systems upper for his pistol and was impressed with his ability to shoot well. Although it's moot point here north of the border, I wonder why more people don't have them for CCW in the States as they are pretty small.

Cantseesights.jpg

TSDRDP-11.jpg
 
I have a Trijicon RMR on one of my pistols which also has "suppressor" iron sights which are taller than normal. I ended up replicating the system on the FNP-45 tactical model. I think it' the best of both worlds as my sights "cowitness" meaning that the red dot and the irons are aligned. I shoot in the action sports and that red dot goes a long way to improving my speed with 68 year old eyes.

Quite a number of holster manufactures now have models that provide for the RMR style of RDS. My FNP 45 is ideally suited for the system but too big for many people to carry. A smaller pistol particularly if the slide were milled for the RDS shouldn't be that difficult to conceal. Some people think the system will eventually become "the norm".
 
Because they DO make the gun bigger and more difficult to holster despite being fairly small as red dot sights go.

Also red dots really come into their own for longer distance shooting. For the sort of closer in stuff where you'd likely use a CCW gun the existing sights or learning how to "point shoot" well is more valuable than a red dot.

Oh, and don't forget that you need to turn on the red dot. It's electrically operated other than a couple of rare light gathering styles. And of course such versions would not work well in the dark. Not many times you can justify pulling the ol' CCW piece and have time to find and turn on the red dot switch. As far as I've seen none of them have a grip pressure switch like some laser spots have. Although I suppose one could be made.

Finally a CCW gun with a laser spot has that whole "targeted" intimidation thing going for it. A red dot sight is only seen by the shooter.

Lastly, red dots do not work all that well in bright sunlight. I've seen open class IPSC shooters on extra bright days have some trouble with finding the dot with some brands of sights or if their initial presentation doesn't put the dot right in the middle of the view screen.
 
Rds

The preceding are good points but of course vary depending on the end use and the capabilities of the equipment. While the OP related to CCW, my application and meager experience relates more to general sporting use and in particular IPSC, Steel Challenge and the like. To see a video of the Docter RDS in action, go to the "Docter" web site for a demo.

My RMR is always on and has extended battery life. Other Trijicon models are dual light source and don't use batteries. I doubt they are as bright as mine. The size of the dot is important as the smaller dots suitable for a rifle or BE shooting are not good for fast acquisition. Mine is 8 MOA and 7 MOA is common.

I have seen some RDS units that are poor in bright light. Mine is acceptable and of course I have the second reference with the iron sights which is an advantage of a co-witness setup if that can be achieved.

In a defensive situation, a lot is made of the intimidation fact of the laser but that is a dual-edged sword as waving a laser around gives your opponent a very quick fix on one's location. Even in very dim light, I can see shapes and and that point the RDS can easily be seen as can my front night sight.

One additional advantage of the RDS is that people with "mature" eyes find them easier to use than the focusing challenges of conventional sights.
 
KDX, the slide mounted dots are starting to to be used more and more now for ccw on mid and larger framed pistols, and Trijicon doesn't use a battery.
Built in lasers seem to rule the small pistols.
 
john simmons said:
KDX, the slide mounted dots are starting to to be used more and more now for ccw on mid and larger framed pistols, and Trijicon doesn't use a battery.
Built in lasers seem to rule the small pistols.
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Some Trijicon RMR's use a battery and others don't. The ones that don't, use a combination of a light gathering "lens" and tritium. The most expensive models use a battery and have an on/off switch. My RMR 02 does not have the switch and stays on. The battery should last a year or more and so I find this acceptable. As with the OP picture, the dot of my unit is directly in line with the iron front sight so battery loss would not be a big deal.

Here is a shot of my rig:
FNP45wTacSights-RMR.jpg
 
Apparently I haven't seen some of the better options. But they sound pretty good. Especially up to a year of battery life despite being left on.

Not everyone I've seen at matches has issues with the dot brightness. I suspect the ones that don't have to fumble around are using these better models.
 
BCRider said:
Apparently I haven't seen some of the better options. But they sound pretty good. Especially up to a year of battery life despite being left on.

Not everyone I've seen at matches has issues with the dot brightness. I suspect the ones that don't have to fumble around are using these better models.
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The battery/LED models are brighter. Besides having an on/off switch, the RM 07 also has adjustable brightness. It has an MOA 6.5 dot. I would have gotten this model except it was out of stock everywhere for ages.

I'm on the FN forum regularly. There is a big demand for the FNP 45 and the Trijicon RMR along with purpose built holsters. Most of the big Kydex holster builders now making one or several models that protect the RDS including full duty holsters as these are becoming popular with LEO's.

The beauty of the FNP 45 Tactical and Competition models is that they have premilled slides for the RMR and Docter RDS which is what sold me. I really like the setup as it is easier to transition between plates in Steel Challenge courses. When you see the dot, BANG :D
 
hercster said:
Some Trijicon RMR's use a battery and others don't. The ones that don't, use a combination of a light gathering "lens" and tritium. The most expensive models use a battery and have an on/off switch. My RMR 02 does not have the switch and stays on. The battery should last a year or more and so I find this acceptable. As with the OP picture, the dot of my unit is directly in line with the iron front sight so battery loss would not be a big deal.

Here is a shot of my rig:
FNP45wTacSights-RMR.jpg
Click to expand...

Nice looking set up. I think these will become more popular over the next few years.
 
Steel Challenge

john simmons said:
hercster, where is it that you are shooting Steel Challenge? Don't hear about it much here in Canada.............yet.
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I'm in Texas for the winter and shoot in a club here. I was introduced to the game hear last year. It's a great game as it's easy to understand but not that easy to shoot well. The set up is quick and not too costly for a club that has the facilities in terms of suitable berms. There are eight standardized set ups for the plates which vary in size and placement depending on the course of fire. Because the plates are at different distances in both depth and laterally, shooting quickly is deceptively difficult.

Here is a clip of yours truly shooting a course called "The Pendulum". The centre target is the "stop" plate. It is shot last and stops the clock. I'm shooting a 45 ACP 1911 in this clip but many shooters use a .22 to keep the costs down. My guess is that the favourite pistol is the Ruger Mark lll. I put a .22 Upper on my 1911 and shoot at $.04 a shots instead of $.40 for the .45.

 
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25mm said:
My wife has a beretts 92fs, will the red dot sight fit in the old sight spot or is there smithing involved
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There are several mounts available but I'm not sure about Beretta. Mine fits directly on the FNP -45 as the slide is milled. I can also use the RDS on my .22 upper for my 1911 as it has a Picatinny rail. I bought a Picatinny adaptor for the RMR. The best thing is to check with Docter or Trijicon to see what they have for the Beretta dovetail. I know that you can also buy an adapter blank that can be milled to fit by a good smith.
 
hercster said:
I'm in Texas for the winter and shoot in a club here. I was introduced to the game hear last year. It's a great game as it's easy to understand but not that easy to shoot well. The set up is quick and not too costly for a club that has the facilities in terms of suitable berms. There are eight standardized set ups for the plates which vary in size and placement depending on the course of fire. Because the plates are at different distances in both depth and laterally, shooting quickly is deceptively difficult.

Here is a clip of yours truly shooting a course called "The Pendulum". The centre target is the "stop" plate. It is shot last and stops the clock. I'm shooting a 45 ACP 1911 in this clip but many shooters use a .22 to keep the costs down. My guess is that the favourite pistol is the Ruger Mark lll. I put a .22 Upper on my 1911 and shoot at $.04 a shots instead of $.40 for the .45.

Must be nice not shooting in the snow this time of year! I had the entire Steel Challenge plates plasma cut late last year and will start shooting Steel Challenge proper this spring in Whitehorse. Also shoot the Alaska state championships. 2010,2011 and registered for 2012. 100% fun.
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i would really like to put a set of 10 police trainees through training with a melted in rds setup and compare to 10 using iron sites and see what the difference in skill and scores ends up being
 
heavenIsAlie said:
i would really like to put a set of 10 police trainees through training with a melted in rds setup and compare to 10 using iron sites and see what the difference in skill and scores ends up being
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It would be easier for novice shooters to have more accurate rounds using the RDS than with irons right away.

If the RDS is to be used in policing applications, the shooters MUST be able to accurately shoot with irons too. If the RDS is battery operated and has a limited lifespan, the RDS will run out of energy right when one needs it.

The biggest thing holding back RDS equipped pistols from being introduced into the policing market is the lack of security holsters. Safariland makes a ALS holster, but it is not readily available and only in Multicam.

With the RMR and possibly the new Burris Fastfire III, the RDS for pistols may become more mainstream as these units appear to be very robust and solve some of the issues with previous generations of RDS systems. I'd say it is still a ways off before a major police department adopts RDS equipped pistols as issued gear. I do think that the Tactical units will be seriously looking at them sooner than later, once there is better holster support.
 
Mikjk said:
It would be easier for novice shooters to have more accurate rounds using the RDS than with irons right away.
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of course it would, but i would like real data on it to show just how much.

would obviously have to be a co witness setup, thus the melted in part

i just see all the people who do a review/write up on RDS on pistols and it turning out to not be as fast at short range or equal in speed and wonder how much of that is the fact that they have 20 000 rounds through iron sights and what the difference would be if someone started from the get go with an RDS
 
RDS vs Irons

I'm not sure about where, when or who but I think testing has been done with LEO and scores did dramatically improve with the RDS.

Bladetech is making a duty holster with retention for the FNP-45 with an RDS and their may be others. I know that Comp-tac was looking into the matter because I inquired myself.

I looked at three Mini RDS units including Burris, Leupold and Trijicon. IMO the Trijicon is by far the most rugged. If looking to mount a unit on a pistol with "suppressor" sights be aware of units that have adjustment screws on the rear as they will be blocked by the elevated iron rear sight. The Trijicon's elevation and windage adjustments are on the sides.
 
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