Red Dot vs Irons

Ganderite

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Yesterday I shot a Service Pistol match – twice. Once with iron sights and once with a red dot (Vortex).

I wanted to see how much advantage there is to an optic on a pistol (if any). The pistols were a pair of Caniks. Both have excellent triggers and the only real difference is the sights.

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I am 75 years old and have cataracts. They are not yet bad enough to warrant surgery, so in the mean time I have to put up with slightly blurry vision and the feeling that the lights should be turned a notch brighter.

With iron sights, one must focus on the front sight in order to get a good sight picture and accuracy. Those of us over 40 benefit from shooting glasses with the lens for the shooting eye set to focus at about 25” (eye to front sight). These glasses have a convention lens for one eye and a reading glass lens for the shooting eye.

With a red dot one focuses on the target, so our ordinary glasses work just fine. This fact, alone, is a major advantage.

I have shot IPSC matches with both iron sights and with a red dot. For the accuracy shots at 25+ yards, the red dot is superb. I can make those shots easily. For the fast and furious close up shots, the iron sights are much better. The red dot accuracy is not required and the time it takes to find the dot is wasted time.

With a red dot you get instant feedback of how the shot went. The bullet hole appears where the dot was when the shot broke. If the dot was skidding left on the shot, because I slapped the trigger, the shot misses left. As a result, with a red dot you learn to shoot better. That is, the better score is not because of the optic, but because you learned to shoot better.

The Service Pistol shoot included a “two to the body, one to the head” stage. With the red dot it was easy to get the head shots, with no doubt they were there. With irons I tended to get more shots skidding to the left because I was slapping the trigger, but could not see myself doing it.

Some of the stages included weak hand only and also 2 handed, on the weak side. For these it was more difficult to find the red dot in the sight and it took longer to get each shot off. Given the time constraints, the result was more rushed shots and bigger groups than with iron sights. My score with irons was much better than the red dot score. I need practice.

In comparing the irons vs optics results, the only stage where the optic showed a real advantage was the last stage, where we had to shoot at a 4” bull at 25 yards. With irons I got 7 bulls. With optics I got 15.

My final score was Optics -581, Irons – 570. Not a big difference.
 
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Are those Canicks a copy of the PPQ or Glock or neither? With cataracts I find I have to turn the dot down only because I have the halo going on when shooting the Red Dot. Your experience pretty much is the same as mine. I think with practice the Red Dot will do better than irons shooting at a distance into small targets. For practical purposes outside of competitions I don't see any real advantage and some disadvantages mainly being the fear of failure of the Optic when you need it the most.

Take Care

Bob
 
Are those Canicks a copy of the PPQ or Glock or neither? With cataracts I find I have to turn the dot down only because I have the halo going on when shooting the Red Dot. Your experience pretty much is the same as mine. I think with practice the Red Dot will do better than irons shooting at a distance into small targets. For practical purposes outside of competitions I don't see any real advantage and some disadvantages mainly being the fear of failure of the Optic when you need it the most.

Take Care

Bob

My Vortex Viper has a 3 MOA dot. Fairly small. But the aiming mark on the Service Pistol target is only 4", so a bright dot would wipe out the aiming mark. I turned the dot down so I could still see the aiming mark.

Now that you mention it, I have always preferred the dot not to be too bright. Maybe this is because of the cataracts.

I am told this model Canik is a copy of a Walther. I have other Caniks that are copies of the CZ. "Canik", by the way is pronounced "Janick".

The fear of the dot dying in a match is well founded. It happened to me last year. I had the back up pistol with me.

But, having learned my lesson, I will install a new battery in the spring. The last battery last 2 1/2 years, so changing it each spring should take care of the risk.
 
Well the battery dying during a match is one thing...having it die when a BG/bear is about to shoot/eat you is a whole different world of aggravation. There is a place for this type of Optic but it does come with a slightly higher risk. Murphy exists. I run the Venom with a 6MOA and just turn it down. I would never put an optic on a pistol for any other reason other than for competition. Just a personal thing.

Take Care

Bob
 
Interesting read. I have been holding off putting my red dot on my Shadow 2 until I'm consistent with irons (proficient one night isn't an issue, it's the next night when I suck that is). Maybe I should switch to the red dot for a while.
 
Alchemist it is much easier to solve your initial shooting woes with irons. Take a lesson or two then work on your grip and trigger pull. If your irons are bouncing around now the Red Dot is going to drive you crazy. There is no secret to holding a good sight picture. It takes PRACTICE lots of practice. Get a good teacher to get you started. Practicing a bad grip, trigger pull and stance will get you to be really good at being really bad. Dry firing is your friend. Once you get a fairly regular steady grip and sight then make the switch to a Red Dot if you must, to fine tune your shooting.

Just my opinion and you paid nothing for it.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Alchemist it is much easier to solve your initial shooting woes with irons. Take a lesson or two then work on your grip and trigger pull. If your irons are bouncing around now the Red Dot is going to drive you crazy. There is no secret to holding a good sight picture. It takes PRACTICE lots of practice. Get a good teacher to get you started. Practicing a bad grip, trigger pull and stance will get you to be really good at being really bad. Dry firing is your friend. Once you get a fairly regular steady grip and sight then make the switch to a Red Dot if you must, to fine tune your shooting.

Just my opinion and you paid nothing for it.

Take Care

Bob


Not necessarily, in my experience.

A typical older shooter (I don't know Alchemist, but a name like that does not sound like a kid. "Kid" to me is anyone under 50.) has to deal with sight picture with irons. He has to focus on the front sight (which he cannot do unless he has a lens set to focus at about 25 inches) and there has to be lots of clearance in the rear sight so he has adequate white pace on either side of the front sight. He won't have this unless he has deliberately opened up the sight notch so he would be able to see 2 front sights, side by side.

All that before he fires a shot. And a red dot takes away those issues. He can focus on the target, adjusting the red dot brightness so that it does not over-whelm the target.

Then there is the issue of breaking the shot. It is difficult to break two habits. Snatch and flinch.

Sight picture looks good. Now! Bang! This tends to mean a trigger snatch and the shot goes left or left-down.

And, since you know the gun is going to shoot, you flinch for good measure.

With a Red Dot, the same thing applies. Snatch and Flinch blow the group - except, with a RD you SEE the dot skid and you know you just did it, so you learn to press the trigger so the shot goes off on target. And the hole appears exactly where the RD was.

For me, using a RD makes me shoot better shots.

Yes, you can see the sight wiggle. If it wiggles all over the bull and all your shots are 9s and 10s, for most guys that would be a HUGE improvement.
 
I’m no whipper snapper (just over 50) and I’m dealing with my dominant eye changing over from my youth and also needing glasses to see distant objects clearly. I’ve had some lessons and do fine generally but I like to be a bit of a perfectionist. I might swap the irons for a red dot for a bit to see.
 
I think that would be a great advantage finding the dot, But I have never shot one with the irons in the window.
I don't shoot in matches, both of my vortex are 6mm, a bit big for bulls eye shooting, but it really helps me.
If I take my time, I can shoot as good with iron sights, depends on what gun I use.
This would be interesting , Ganderite ,if I still had it, A stainless Ruger sec. six snub nose with a scope base on it, yes really, I did not do that, and at the time, never mounted a scope, before I had red dots, do have a Ruger Leopold pistol scope , Silver, was going to mount that, but sold the gun before I put the scope one.
The base was buggered, a piece of weaver rail.
I do have scope mount for S-W revolver that I should try out, weaver, they make a mount now for red dot base.
QUOTE=sailor723;16522701]I have a Sig 226rx with the Romeo red dot. This set up comes with suppresser height iron sights so dot failure isn’t a major concern[/QUOTE]
 
I have a G34 with Vortex venom and Trijicon Supressor Height Sights, which can be used through the venom. The tall sights are an excellent option if available for your gun/RDS set-up. Can use the irons or RDS at your discretion. Holster option are reduced though, which can be a consideration as well.
 
Do the supressor sights serve to help find the red dot in a hurry?

Yup! P320 RX has factory optic and high irons. You can use either. I just pull my eyeline up slightly for red dot only...
All my future pistols purchases will be optic ready preferably with suppressor height sites.
 
Do the supressor sights serve to help find the red dot in a hurry?

Yes, very much so. I have a Browning Buck Mark with a red dot I use for rimfire speed steel. In this set up the red dot replaces the rear sight. It took me a lot longer to get used to this set up. The saving grace is that you start from low ready rather than holstered so you already have eyes on the dot at the beep.
 
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