Register antique 1858 Remmy?

[dingus]

Dingus-You're right on the money about someone putting a factory mag shell in it. I've already addressed that previously, as I'm building the cylinder to accept ONLY shortened cases making sure no other shell would fit.

I have been mulling over that Schofield idea. As I havent started milling yet, I may rethink my plan. My reason for going with shortened mags is my brother doesnt reload, and can keep me in good supply of once-fired 44 Mag brass to the tune of 5-6000 so far!

Well if you go 44 Sp chamber length then you need to unscrew the 454 barrel from the frame and get one thats set up for 44 Sp about .430 Dia as brotherockeye mentions.
or reline the one you got.

If you buy a 44 Cal Adaptor cylinder and ream it to 455 or 45 Schofield chamber length you can leave the .454 dia bore barrel on the gun and load .454 dia 250 SWC lead bullets.
Trail boss in a 45 Schofield case with 5.5 grs will shoot fine in the old iron.
You can buy 45 Schofield head stamped starline brass from track the wolf they will mail it right to you.
I shoot 6 Grs of TB in my 1875 remys with there new Cylinders and the guns love that load thats with a 454 dia Keith type 250 gr bullet.
Cuts a full caliber holes in stuff.

 

[Alonzo]

Alonzo-Apparently you dont understand the configuration of an 1858. The cylinder is removable by just pulling the pin. I am building a new cylinder. I am not altering the original gun in any way.

And besides, its just a $1000 gun.

p.s. the '08 Mustang has been in the driveway and FAST on the highway for a year now!

AN '08...hell, I was talking a 2010

I have had several original 1858's in my hands over the years, some of which were Civil War presentation pieces (the owners {collectors} would never shoot them). I do have an affinity to Colts and Springfield's...the Colts in the collection are the 1849 (ca. 1855), 1851 (ca. 1853) 1860 (ca. 1864) and 1873 (ca. 1879 41 cal)...so far.
I was asked if I had shot my Springfield Model 1865 Allin's 58 rim-fire conversion and my Springfield Model 1866 50-70 Allin's conversion...my reply to the guy was..."Are you f**king nuts?"
OK...I have to admit...I have shot an original Springfield 45-70 trapdoor (no finish, replacement stock, mixed parts) in long range rifle shoots...it likes to eat Shiloh Sharps. I have even used one to shoot BP cartridge rifle competition for years, until I had a custom gun built. At that time there were no new guns which would shoot nearly as well as an original Trapdoor...plus the fact that a 90% trapdoor would sell for about $450, and same condition 1873 Winchesters were about $850. Browning B-78's were around $650.
Be very careful with your project...a $1000 dollar gun is better then a $10 broken gun no matter what age. If you decide to sell after shooting it for a while, I would assume you would inform a buyer you have been shooting it? It may be a factor for a lot of collectors (not so for shooters)...even if it is a no finish gun.
Rehabilitating/restoring a garbage gun is different story...it is and always will be a garbage gun, though in some cases a careful restoration can bring it back to collectible status, maybe not shooting status.
As a collector I would not seriously consider investing in an antique firearm that has been altered or had something recently added/removed in order to be able to shoot it...unless it is something very rare...even then the value would be substantially lower. For the guys who would not think twice about doing this (altering, adding/removing), their stuff will always be in a class of it's own.
OK, I am stepping down from my soap box.

P.S. Good luck on your project...hope it turns out OK>

 

[mooncoon]

I will take the counter point to Alonzo; my guns are for shooting and I don't feel that shooting them with moderate loads or loads that approximate the original loading detract from the value of the gun. While that might not be true for a gun that was in pristine condition, very few of us can afford those and instead own guns with hopefully a good bore but significant wear on the outside. I also see nothing wrong with starting with a junked original and bringing it back to shooting condition. Properly done, its value will not be nearly as great as a complete original but will still be considerably greater than when you started.

cheers mooncoon

 

[dingus]

I will take the counter point to Alonzo; my guns are for shooting and I don't feel that shooting them with moderate loads or loads that approximate the original loading detract from the value of the gun. While that might not be true for a gun that was in pristine condition, very few of us can afford those and instead own guns with hopefully a good bore but significant wear on the outside. I also see nothing wrong with starting with a junked original and bringing it back to shooting condition. Properly done, its value will not be nearly as great as a complete original but will still be considerably greater than when you started.

cheers mooncoon

I agree.
and i have a Antique $6000 Conehammer mauser that i shoot as much as i can and im not selling it i bought it to shoot not stroke and fondle


Most collectors in Canada i know shoot there Antique revolvers i dont know that many glass case collectors.
Some do collect as investments but still do some shooting to.
In england they can buy and collect antique revolvers without Lic or Reg, but they cant shoot them unless they have a pile of permits Licences ect.
I think were lucky things are the way they are here.
Take advantage of it!

 

[Alonzo]

I agree.
and i have a Antique $6000 Conehammer mauser that i shoot as much as i can and im not selling it i bought it to shoot not stroke and fondle


Most collectors in Canada i know shoot there Antique revolvers i dont know that many glass case collectors.
Some do collect as investments but still do some shooting to.
In england they can buy and collect antique revolvers without Lic or Reg, but they cant shoot them unless they have a pile of permits Licences ect.
I think were lucky things are the way they are here.
Take advantage of it!

The more guys that brag about being able to do exactly that (shoot their antiques) the closer we are to getting the same B.S. laws as England, which you mentioned. Go ahead and shoot your antiques, just don't brag about it and flaunt it like you are getting away with something. The feds will eventually find out and clue into the fact you guys are doing this and they will put the brakes on antique de-registration so fast it will make your head spin...then everyone else with antiques will suffer. Yes, there are plenty of counter points and arguments for or against this idea. The more noise you make the more attention you get...you don't want the feds attention on this one!!!!!
I have been collecting since the early 1970's and have encountered just a very small minority of collectors who have a penchant for shooting their stuff.
Over the years I have met collectors who run the gamut from average working Joes to multi-millionaire collectors. The vast majority collect guns for historical value...not to shoot them. I have had guns worth over $200,000 in my hands and have never asked the owner "How does it shoot?" It is un-said that these type of guns will never be fired. Likewise, I have held guns worth $200 that guys swear they would never fire...and I hold no malice to them either.
Everyone has an opinion on this and no one is trying convince someone else to go and shoot their antique collectibles. It is a personal choice and that has to be respected...anyone who tries to convince someone to shoot their antique firearm should mind their own business.
Nuff said!!!!!

 

[dingus]

Alonzo Did you not read the Frist post in this thread or did you just cut in half way thru!

89 Diesel was ASKING about info on what to do to SHOOT cartridges in his Antique Revolver with a conversion cylinder and how to keep its Antique Status.
Know one is twisting his hands to shoot his gun.
If i want to help out a fellow CGN SHOOTER i will do so as i see fit.
I give lotsa guys advise on shooting there antiques and will keep doing so.

 

[david doyle]

anyone who tries to convince someone to shoot their antique firearm should mind their own business.
Nuff said!!!!!

I don't think anyone on this forum has ever encouraged anyone to ever shoot anything. There is lots of disscussion and reporting but no one is trying to convince any one else to use unknown levels of skill to fire un inspected antiques! Do some reading here it is not a place where any one wants to put anyone (or thier hobby) at risk. having/making a safe cartridge for a given arm is fascinating and fun aspect of collecting and ads value to the money spent in a non conspumtive way. I use my guns for entertainment, education etc as well as investment how is that wrong?

As for your assesment of valuation why would a collector care if a 44 russian revolver had shot a 44 russian cartridge in the last 50 years? How would that impact the value, say to the same revolver in identical condition that had last fired a cartridge 63 years ago?

How about this: 98 years ago a guy in england finds a revolver in the drawer at the summer house and thinks he'd try out grandpas 500 webley with a cartridge loaded in india 30 years before. How does that compare say to a guy in saskatoon in 2008 who makes a handload for his 500 webley which will be held by his hand in proximity to all the parts of him he holds dear. Which scenario do you think poses a greater risk to the 'collecting' value? No one goes out spends hard earned dollars on a gun with the idea that they want to devalue it or hurt themselves.

There are collectors and thier are shooters and thier are collectors who collect what they can shoot. Keep in mind that the 99% of the firearms that most of us covet have spent far more time in the hands of the last two.

You seem to think not having these guns registered means something? If that was the case (i.e there was a big kick in owning an unregistered firearm) then why would'nt these guys just fill thier basments with the oodles of unregistered firearms that are all over the place? no one cares, we are so used to maintaining compliance with this countries regs that one more certificiate either way does'nt much matter. Every 'antique collector' that I know has a larger collection of registered :hunting rifles, milsurp and/or modern handguns than they do unregisterable antiques.

The below comments seem to be just about a new record low for this forum ( coming from me that means something LOL) and such a blinding testament to ignorance that it is laughable.

Anyone who would "convert" an original percussion revolver into a cartridge gun is beyond insane...the repro idea is the best thing...SELL THE ORIGINAL TO A REAL COLLECTOR...not some "gotta shoot it" kind of bubba.
Then buy a repro and do whatever the **** you want with it. If you are all horned up about not registering an antique firearm and want to shoot it...just because...here is good advise...sell EVERY antique firearm you have to collectors and buy a new Camaro, or Challenger or even a Mustang GT. Then drive around as fast as you possibly can...just because

.

 

[BrotherRockeye]

I don't think anyone on this forum has ever encouraged anyone to ever shoot anything. There is lots of disscussion and reporting but no one is trying to convince any one else to use unknown levels of skill to fire un inspected antiques! Do some reading here it is not a place where any one wants to put anyone (or thier hobby) at risk. having/making a safe cartridge for a given arm is fascinating and fun aspect of collecting and ads value to the money spent in a non conspumtive way. I use my guns for entertainment, education etc as well as investment how is that wrong?

As for your assesment of valuation why would a collector care if a 44 russian revolver had shot a 44 russian cartridge in the last 50 years? How would that impact the value, say to the same revolver in identical condition that had last fired a cartridge 63 years ago?

How about this: 98 years ago a guy in england finds a revolver in the drawer at the summer house and thinks he'd try out grandpas 500 webley with a cartridge loaded in india 30 years before. How does that compare say to a guy in saskatoon in 2008 who makes a handload for his 500 webley which will be held by his hand in proximity to all the parts of him he holds dear. Which scenario do you think poses a greater risk to the 'collecting' value? No one goes out spends hard earned dollars on a gun with the idea that they want to devalue it or hurt themselves.

There are collectors and thier are shooters and thier are collectors who collect what they can shoot. Keep in mind that the 99% of the firearms that most of us covet have spent far more time in the hands of the last two.

You seem to think not having these guns registered means something? If that was the case (i.e there was a big kick in owning an unregistered firearm) then why would'nt these guys just fill thier basments with the oodles of unregistered firearms that are all over the place? no one cares, we are so used to maintaining compliance with this countries regs that one more certificiate either way does'nt much matter. Every 'antique collector' that I know has a larger collection of registered :hunting rifles, milsurp and/or modern handguns than they do unregisterable antiques.

The below comments seem to be just about a new record low for this forum ( coming from me that means something LOL) and such a blinding testament to ignorance that it is laughable.

.

that my friend is far more eloquent than what I had in mind...well said!

 

[DEZ]

Well I know Alonzo he's a good guy but we don't see eye to eye on collecting and shooting antiques he has a nice SAA that I've been trying to talk him into shooting but it's a no go so far he has a very nice collection and at are monthly gun club meeting I always ask if I can buy his SAA so I can rebarrel it and put on a new cylinder just to get him going but its all in good fun when its yours you can do what ever you like with it you can shoot it, bubba it, or put it in a case my opinion does not matter because it's yours

 

[Alonzo]

Alonzo Did you not read the Frist post in this thread or did you just cut in half way thru!

89 Diesel was ASKING about info on what to do to SHOOT cartridges in his Antique Revolver with a conversion cylinder and how to keep its Antique Status.
Know one is twisting his hands to shoot his gun.
If i want to help out a fellow CGN SHOOTER i will do so as i see fit.
I give lotsa guys advise on shooting there antiques and will keep doing so.

I have been reading the thread from the start, and did misunderstand the concept, initially...figuring he idea was to alter an original cylinder.
The concept of sharing good information and experience is a positive thing, the information you pass on helps guys in their endeavor to shoot their antiques. I have done the same for fellow trapdoor shooters, since this was my first BP cartridge rifle I used in competition.
I am sure you would agree with my observation that there are guys on the forum who honestly think they are getting away with something by shooting their antiques. As long as they are happy...who cares. I stated my opinion and hopefully clearly indicated the reasons behind it.
I will say again...in some circumstances we as firearms owners need to be cautious and try to avoid the attention of the feds. When things are not clearly stated in the law, the interpretation will never be consistently understood.
A couple of members seem to believe I am ignorant, or whatever the terms are...well...that is a matter of opinion. My posts are generally intended to generate discussion, or provide information from my experience. Whether guys agree with me or not, is not my concern. Discussion of an issue is important and in this instance it seems I have stirred up a Hornet's nest...this is a good thing.
BTW..DEZ...you can't have my COLT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[89diesel]

I will say again...in some circumstances we as firearms owners need to be cautious and try to avoid the attention of the feds. When things are not clearly stated in the law, the interpretation will never be consistently understood.

I think you've finally got it! This is precisely the reason for this thread. I didnt want to alter the antique to the point I have to register it. The less attraction to the oldies, the better. Too many antiques that end up registered means we might have to register all of them. I like to shoot, but I dont want to give the feds permission to search my home at their whim (at least this is what I understand is one of the things that "can" happen when you register a gun)

 

[Alonzo]

I think you've finally got it! This is precisely the reason for this thread. I didnt want to alter the antique to the point I have to register it. The less attraction to the oldies, the better. Too many antiques that end up registered means we might have to register all of them. I like to shoot, but I dont want to give the feds permission to search my home at their whim (at least this is what I understand is one of the things that "can" happen when you register a gun)

I think we have reached the point of mutual agreement...that almost sounded like a lawyer talking...kick me if I do that again.
It appears a few guys missed that point...I may have circled around it a bit here in the hopes I did not have to be blunt. At times we, as firearms owners, are our worst enemy.

 

[david doyle]

When things are not clearly stated in the law, the interpretation will never be consistently understood.

Too many antiques that end up registered means we might have to register all of them.

The law is clearly understood. There is absolutley no grey area. The definitions are sound, the intent logical and the results satisfactory.


Keep in mind that the feds currently will not allow you to register anything that is not suppose to be registered. They will deregister but they will not transfer registration of Antique firearms. What does that tell you?

 

[BrotherRockeye]

personally I'm a shooter...not saying I wouldn't like to have a few antiques just for lookin at...maybe down the road.
all my long guns have been fired,even the old timers...some just to make sure they would.
It's satisfying to me knowing they still do what they were designed for...getting them to that state again is doubly rewarding.

I see the non registration issue not as a "loophole" but rather as a privilege,and just like any privilege if you abuse it you can lose it.

good discussion all ways here...thanks gents!

 

[dingus]

Antique irons that are well taken care of will end up owned by someone Else.

All the orignal owners of my Antiques are long dead.
So the guns we have now if taken care of will maby see shootin action again even if we choose not to shoot them ourselves.
I have guns that i shoot less than others because of there value but i still enjoy shootin them once in awhile.

I dont think shooting with lead bullets and mild loads hurts theses guns to much.
That said i agree its your own choice.

 

[Alonzo]

Finally getting some good discussion here, as well as a variety of opinions.
There is always a risk in shooting antique firearms. Parts can break or wear out,frames can stretch or bend, cylinders can crack, etc. As mentioned, it is the choice of the owner. As dingus mentioned, mild loads are the recipe to avoid damaging a valuable antique.

From a non antique perspective...a buddy of mine decided he wanted to shoot his original Pederson device for the M1903 MkI rifle. The devise is worth in the $75,000 range and ammo runs around $15.00 a round...he cracked open a sealed Frankford Arsenal box of, if i recall, 48 rounds...the sealed box sells for about $400. I asked what he would have done if the device broke while shooting...he said he would have had a heart attack...he only shot about 20 rounds through it, cleaned it and put it away. He did not want to take any more chances.