registered sporting vs, non registered fun events

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Covey Ridge

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It was interesting to note that the federal top gun 400 got 21 registered shooters and the Blairmore fun shoot got 50 entries. The. Alberta and Canadian associations should wonder why.
 
I've noticed that too. The DU shoot a while back at beaver hills had over 200 shooters, their cash shoot with thousands in added prize money and a cheaper/bird entry fee has 72 shooters.

I'm curious what others thoughts are about this.
 
We had an increase in numbers at the Lethbridge shoot (non - registered) as well.

My thoughts are that local shooters are more likely to try it if they don't feel intimidated, and that the entry being 35% less also helped.
 
Someone posted a paper poster on the wall of the Mossleigh club pointing out the same thing as the OP.

The general consensus was "I'd rather drive to the Pass than SK"

Not saying it's right or wrong just relaying what I heard.
 
Not sure why any club would charge 35% more for a registered shoot. Target fees are only 2 cents per target and the medals are supplied. We had a great turnout for the Regsitered Cash shoot in Tofield. $16000 in cash prizes were handed out. plus medals, meals included. Shooters from all over were there. Grant Kirkup was high over all in FITASC and Sporting. His FITASC was a magnificent 90. His sporting scores were higher. $325 for 300 targets. Pricier than normal, but we had ref's at each parcour and great targets. Beaverhill Sporting Clays throws a heck of a shoot. I think there were 72 shooters from Hunter to Master. Junior Fitasc was a great shoot off. Scores should be on www.cnsca.ca this week.
 
Here’s my take on it. At our little sporting clay course, most of the shooters would rather shoot at a less challenging course. These guys are for the most part hunters, and have little desire to become sporting clay champions. You can mix up the size of targets and play with angles and speeds, but keep the targets inside 40 yards or they lose interest in a big hurry.
Like anything that becomes completive, the rules get stricter, the cost goes up, and the behavior on the line becomes more regimented. I realize there is a time and place for higher end shooters to settle the score, but that kind of shooting will only appeal to the higher end competitor.
My club members would to tell me, keep it “Fun. Set the course so the best shooter are shooting around 90 , that leaves room for improvement and lets the average shooter go home with a 70 and feel good about it, and want to try again next shoot . We try to keep the atmosphere on the course light and fun. Comments and trash talk are normal between good friends, but if you dish it out you better be able to take it.
I love this sport and try every club I can, but when I tried to talk some of our members into attending a shoot at a higher end club they were not interested. One guy told me I don’t shoot a t 55 yard ducks when I am hunting why would I shoot at 55 yard clay birds ?
Just some input from a small club
 
Interesting conversations, and interesting take on things.

I was at the Tofield Cash shoot NZClaybuster, if fact I think I shot with ya based on your handle, and it was a great shoot, but the 72 shooters wasn't a great turnout compared to the 200+ they had for the DU shoot. The question is why can they get over 200 at a shoot where it's just basically door prizes, yet a cash shoot with an opportunity to take home money, you don't have to be a top shot, just have a good day in your class. And even though the cash shoot was a higher entry fee then average, it was still lower cost/bird then the DU fundraiser shoot was.

Kenny, while it is true that tournaments will usually have a couple harder stations then a fun shoot, I hardly ever put more then an IC in my gun during a registered shoot. Last weekend in Tofield I used mod chokes on only one sporting clays station that I can recall. The fitasc was a different story. In Kitscotty 2 weeks before I only put in an IC for two stations the rest I used Skeet and Skeet, so I'm not sure where all these 55 yard crossers people are scared of are at. Maybe it's different down in Ontario. Also even at the registered shoots, generally the top guys are shooting close to 90%

I'm not saying that what you are hearing is untrue, I'm just not sure why everyone thinks that about registered shoots.

Based on what's been said here, and what I've heard elsewhere I wonder if any of the following are factors, and how much for who.

Is it a question of how many birds are shot? Do most people only want to shoot 100 in a day? Personally I wish tournaments were more, if I'm going to drive 2-3 hours each way I'd rather shoot 300 birds/day then 100, but maybe I'm an anomaly.

Is it a case of the scores are tracked and posted, and maybe your not the hero you think you are? I often think ego is one of the biggest thing that hurts the shooting sports in general, as too many people talk big and are scared to shoot in public because they know they can't live up to it. I'm thinking about all the guys who brag up how great they shoot at trap and skeet, when it's actually on a hand thrower or hand #### in the back 40, and they don't even know what trap and skeet actually are.

Is it simply a cost issue? If so why do fun shoots get more shooters, even when they cost more per target to enter?

Is it just the atmosphere of a fun shoot, if so can anyone enlighten me on the difference, if I just showed up to a shoot and shot the round, I couldn't tell you whether it was a fun shoot or a registered shoot based on the squad or hosts behavior. I've been fortunate enough to occasionally get to shoot with some really top shooters, who tend to follow registered tournaments, and I've never found them snobbish, or conceited or anything else that would detract from the day. I've had days I shot poorly, but never I day I didn't thoroughly enjoy myself on the whole.

Is it the classification system? Personally I think the classification system could use some tweeks, but that's never going to keep me away from a shoot.

One thing I do think could be done better is advertisement of shoots. Maybe a DU shoot is heavily promoted by DU to the members and the community. I find it very difficult to find information on registered shoots sometimes. The sporting clays website could use some work on that aspect, they list the shoot dates and locations, but either them, or club websites should list more details. Beaverhills puts on a great shoot, but their website doesn't tell much about costs, meals, times, etc that might be helpful, I didn't even know for sure how many birds we were shooting when I got there. (To be fair I'm sure had I called they would have been very helpful, as their staff is great.)

My last thought is with the limited number of registered shoots, I don't understand why two clubs will hold registered shoots at the same time? There is a very limited number of guys who will travel all over to try and hit most or all registered shoots, so why split those guys up on a weekend.
 
Thanks for the input. I agree wholeheartedly about the promotion of the shoots. When I lived in New Zealand we had the same result. The Hamilton club threw shoots on weekends where the Saturday shoot was reg'd and the Sunday not , then the next shoot the Saturday was not, and the Sunday was reg'd and they had the same results double the shooters for the "fun shoot" I shot all four and the fun shoots had shorter windows and longer birds. I asked about it and it was done to prove a point. At that point the board members claimed defeat and went back to promoting the National events and letting the clubs promote their own shoots.

I would love to see more clubs start with some 5 stand presentations. let the association stick to bringing in 'special' events, coaching clinics, and the like. Let the clubs hold the shoots that bring the most locals. If people have a good time they will come back. Travelling medal chasers will go to the grounds they enjoy. (where the meals are great like Grande Prairie). I would also like to see prizes limited to the medals for placing and everything else given away by lottery or lewis class. Other than the cash shoot most of the prizes are stuff we already have or our wives don't like anyway.

I value the association for its people for that is all that it is. I couldn't care less who I shoot with and I am only trying to beat me. Keep it fun, keep it coming.

J
 
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I wonder if the difference between fun shoots and registered matches is due to the stress of competition and the fact we are an aging population. I like to shoot, but I know that the older I have become the less inclined I am to compete. Part of that is due to the increased difficulty of throwing off stress as well as the increased difficulty of concentrating for long periods of time. Motivation goes down too. I'm not saying I can't do it once in awhile, but it is definitely more 'work' to shoot under pressure and for long periods of time. One hundred to 200 birds without pressure, on the other hand, is fun.
 
Maybe thats the difference for me, I shoot to compete with me, and maybe a little bragging rights among our little group. I dont find any difference in stress from registered to non registered targets. I have also enjoyed every course I have ever shot, hard or easy. Maybe I'm just a push over.
 
NZClaybuster said:
Not sure why any club would charge 35% more for a registered shoot. Target fees are only 2 cents per target and the medals are supplied. We had a great turnout for the Regsitered Cash shoot in Tofield. $16000 in cash prizes were handed out. plus medals, meals included. Shooters from all over were there. Grant Kirkup was high over all in FITASC and Sporting. His FITASC was a magnificent 90. His sporting scores were higher. $325 for 300 targets. Pricier than normal, but we had ref's at each parcour and great targets. Beaverhill Sporting Clays throws a heck of a shoot. I think there were 72 shooters from Hunter to Master. Junior Fitasc was a great shoot off. Scores should be on www.cnsca.ca this week.
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Clubs charge what they need to in order to try to stay in the black Jason.

The 2 cents a bird is only 4 bucks in a 200 bird shoot - and I guess you get the medal in return.
Most registered shoots have more prizes though, and they certainly have a higher expectation. Targets must adhere to the minimums for variation and have equal presentation. There are those that will follow those rules to a tee.

And what you are saying with the scores is quite illustrative too. Fun shoots aren't hung up on that stuff which is liberating.

I have to agree with Kenny - the average guy is not a "clays enthusiast" but rather a hunter.

We went to great trouble to throw registered targets in Lethbridge - folks from the association convinced us to keep at it the second year and that numbers would increase. They did - from 27 shooters to 34.

This year with the fun shoot, and way less headache we were able to get just under 50. Our costs were lower and we brought a demographic of shooter out that was new. Keeping it fun and lower cost is the key in our market.

And on a personal note - I have to say I have had fun at the fun shoots. The association has tightened rules continually - now we have mounted guns, require identical targets etc. All of that has sucked a bit of the fun out of it for me. I took up sporting clays because it represented clays that were to simulate bird hunting. If I wanted regimented clay sports I would go shoot trap :).

These are my personal opinions and do not represent any association.

Norskie
 
Clubs charge what they need to in order to try to stay in the black Jason.

**I understand the economics, I just take issue with the 35% number.

The 2 cents a bird is only 4 bucks in a 200 bird shoot - and I guess you get the medal in return.

** The Medals were introduced for the express purpose of keeping costs down and removing the need to supply more prizes that have to be added to shoot

Most registered shoots have more prizes though, and they certainly have a higher expectation. Targets must adhere to the minimums for variation and have equal presentation. There are those that will follow those rules to a tee.

** THere will always be rule followers and rule breakers. My suggestion is if you don't like the rules, vote to change them. We all get one vote.


And what you are saying with the scores is quite illustrative too. Fun shoots aren't hung up on that stuff which is liberating.

** All sports have competitors and participants. Scores are like breastfeeding, if you are bothered or offended, you are looking waayyy to close.

I have to agree with Kenny - the average guy is not a "clays enthusiast" but rather a hunter.


We went to great trouble to throw registered targets in Lethbridge - folks from the association convinced us to keep at it the second year and that numbers would increase. They did - from 27 shooters to 34.

This year with the fun shoot, and way less headache we were able to get just under 50. Our costs were lower and we brought a demographic of shooter out that was new. Keeping it fun and lower cost is the key in our market.

** I still do not see how the headaches are reduced or the how the cost changes significantly. The only people I know that went were members of the association. 2 went from Red Deer based on my recommendation. I would have been there but for a death in the family. I would love to see how you increased the fun, as the first 2 I went to were great.

And on a personal note - I have to say I have had fun at the fun shoots. The association has tightened rules continually - now we have mounted guns, require identical targets etc. All of that has sucked a bit of the fun out of it for me. I took up sporting clays because it represented clays that were to simulate bird hunting. If I wanted regimented clay sports I would go shoot trap .

** The only rule that has changed significantly was the gun mount rule. Mounted or un mounted guns have now been allowed for a few years. THere have been no other rule changes for sporting that i can think of.
We did introduce FITASC that has its own set of rules, but they are more to manage larger groups of shooters on small pieces of ground and safety. THis was done to allow shooters that vacation and shoot can shoot for Canada if they choose instead of the host country. It affects 5 or 6 of us in Alberta, but there are hundreds across the country that this benefits. It is a new game to play and isn't for everyone. Same as Olympic trap isn't for everyone.


These are my personal opinions and do not represent any association.

Norskie

** These are my personal opinions and I try to convince everyone in the clays association to talk and discuss and show up. AND Bring a buddy shooting. It is with more shooters, more grounds, more variety that the sport gets to be more fun. It isn't by more rules, more complaining, and more waiting. Thanks for your efforts, I will try to make your shoot next year, and hope you can find a way to have a couple per year. If you want to try a FITASC shoot, you have one of the best grounds in the province for it. IT would take another death in the family for me to miss that.

Kind regards and thanks again for hosting a shoot in the south.
J
 
NZClaybuster said:
Not sure why any club would charge 35% more for a registered shoot.
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Jason,
We talked about this exact thing. Mossleigh and Lethbridge charged $100.00 for 200 targets. The last registered shoots I attended were at least $145.00 plus $20.00 dues. You are/were a board member? Why so much more? I agree that the association has done a great job promoting specialty events and attempting to bring in world class competition. Where the association is failing is promoting the sport of sporting clays among guys who just want to break clay and compete a bit. Just off the top of my head, I would say that over 90% at any given shoot are just average guys and these are the guys who pay for the shoot but the shoots seem to be geared towards the less than 10% who are chasing medals or standing.

A friend who has droped from the registered scene says I love to hang with my frineds and break clay. I can go to the registered shoot and pay $145+ or shoot nearly the same targets with my friends the next day for $80.00.
 
Well I can agree to disagree Jason. The registered events are fine for competitors - and for what its worth I shot Masters class. The reality is if you really want to grow the sport, you need to make the environment inclusive - cheaper and less regimented does that.

And the mounted gun is the main issue - but when serious competitors don't get what they feel are "representative targets" there becomes an issue. I have watched stations be shut down by a competitor when "he couldn't see the target". The real kicker there was a fellow on my squad run the station and had had trouble seeing a couple others.

The reality is that the association is really geared towards the top tiers who are competative.
Just my opinion.
 
Covey Ridge said:
Jason,
We talked about this exact thing. Mossleigh and Lethbridge charged $100.00 for 200 targets. The last registered shoots I attended were at least $145.00 plus $20.00 dues. You are/were a board member? Why so much more? I agree that the association has done a great job promoting specialty events and attempting to bring in world class competition. Where the association is failing is promoting the sport of sporting clays among guys who just want to break clay and compete a bit. Just off the top of my head, I would say that over 90% at any given shoot are just average guys and these are the guys who pay for the shoot but the shoots seem to be geared towards the less than 10% who are chasing medals or standing.

A friend who has droped from the registered scene says I love to hang with my frineds and break clay. I can go to the registered shoot and pay $145+ or shoot nearly the same targets with my friends the next day for $80.00.
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I've been to fun shoots which cost way more per bird then registered shoots. I have had the same discussion on just going shooting instead of attending a tournament. However at a tournament you are usually fed, and there is definately more work in putting on a tournament.

So for the extra $65 you get fed so thats $25. You pay $4 for the medals. Usually at hidden ridge they have shells for prizes. So 6 boxes/class times 7 classes plus a case for hoa, 52 boxes, thats about 2 per shooter based on recent attendance, so $12 of entry back to prizes. So $41 goes to extra expenses. That leaves $14 for advertising and administration. My little volunteer club charges $20 for administering the 5 stand league we host.
 
You get fed at our fun shoots too - included for the 100 bucks. Our prizes this year were slimmed considerably. We actually ran ours as a Fish and Game/Pheasants Forever fundraiser - so any extra funds generated were tagged for upland habitat projects. Many guys liked that idea too
 
Scar270 said:
I've been to fun shoots which cost way more per bird then registered shoots. I have had the same discussion on just going shooting instead of attending a tournament. However at a tournament you are usually fed, and there is definately more work in putting on a tournament.

So for the extra $65 you get fed so thats $25. You pay $4 for the medals. Usually at hidden ridge they have shells for prizes. So 6 boxes/class times 7 classes plus a case for hoa, 52 boxes, thats about 2 per shooter based on recent attendance, so $12 of entry back to prizes. So $41 goes to extra expenses. That leaves $14 for advertising and administration. My little volunteer club charges $20 for administering the 5 stand league we host.
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All shoots should be fun! I have no problem paying more for a shoot if it is for a cause or a charity. As far is $25.00 to be fed? The non registered shoots seem to feed us very well and some of the registered shoots I have went to make me wish I had brought a dried old sandwich instead. Medals? I would like to give a bunch of those trinkets back. Some may want ammo, but I wish they would keep the ammo and make the shoot cheaper. Last year the association raised the dues from $10.00 to $20.00. I did not see that we got anything for the $10.00? I thought that the assocaitioin purpose was to promote sporting clays? The black hand reaching into our pockets to santion events and register targets only seems to promote the association. It does nothing to promote those who want to shoot. Add to this a bit of dirty politics by a few who have a God with hurt feelings complex who seem to have went out of the way to allienate a small club which was trying to host a shoot at a reasonable cost.

I just want to shoot. It seems like there are three clubs that are willing to host non registered events. I will support them. I will also support Silver Willow if they host another event to replace the FITASC event that went south.
 
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