My opinion as well.
registered sporting vs, non registered fun events
- Thread starter Covey Ridge
- Start date
My opinion as well.
I think promotion of shooting is a very important point CR and I'm with you. I recall having a feeling similar to yours many years ago with rifle. It seemed that our organization catered to the upper end shooters and few were willing to spend resources and time to encourage people from the general population to participate, especially young people, or to train the average shooter who probably will not go to the olympics. Without promotion of the sport and encouragement of people to participate, again, especially young people, the sport will not have a broad base and won't survive.
Now, I can't blame the powers that be much for not making inroads into the problem. Most of them don't know how to change it anyway and I suspect that in their hearts they have accepted that shooting will end with their passing or it will become an elitist thing. Besides, many of them want to compete with the best and it really is hard to work with the average person in shooting!
I come from a generation where a lot of us added some meat to the pot at home by hunting and many of us learned individual responsibility by carrying a gun, much as you did. I'm saddened by the change, but don't see any answer but to move on. I go out to shoot for fun in events that are fun. When it isn't fun anymore I'll quite. It is what it is. Sincerely, Fred
NZClaybuster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
The question of what you get for your money is simple. The website and its administration cost thousands. We don't have enough volunteers to maintain it as people claim to be too busy. So we have to pay. This is the only central source for promoting the sport there is. I The fees help to bring coaches in to help the shooters. OSP 's Ash family were in Grande Prairie this year and will be back next year. If you want the association to do more, or different, my chair is up this year. You can have it. I only sit on the board because I was asked. I will help in any way I can. The most important way to grow the sport is to bring new shooters on. I have done this with 5 shooters this year. 4 having never shot anything before.
Just keep bringing better ideas. And shoot more.
Just keep bringing better ideas. And shoot more.
Prizes
The fact of the matter I as I see it is that hardly any shoots have OK prizes. Most shoot with the exception of the Cash shoot at Beaverhills, you can't even win back your entry fee. What is the top prize at the Federal 400 1 1/2 flats of shells. I really don't think anyone gives a rats.... about winning a medal. Most meals are charged out to the shooter at more than double the cost for production, which I think is a scam.
I used to host the Kent Cup at Beaverhills and 1 year I decided to keep cost down for the shooters I made up a huge batch of chillie and bought a few buns. When I went to do the same thing the next year I was told I couldn't do that by the guys at Beaverhills, why because they weren't making any money on me cooking lunch. The kent cup became the P&D open which hasn't been held for a few years now.
I think lunch should be an option that the shooter has a choice over.
I can buy a lot of subway for $25.
I used to shoot 1000 registered targets or 1200 every year for 10 years, I haven't shot a single one this year and only shot the Cash shoot last year. Seems to me the money isn't going back to the shooter like they do at most events in the USA. FS
The fact of the matter I as I see it is that hardly any shoots have OK prizes. Most shoot with the exception of the Cash shoot at Beaverhills, you can't even win back your entry fee. What is the top prize at the Federal 400 1 1/2 flats of shells. I really don't think anyone gives a rats.... about winning a medal. Most meals are charged out to the shooter at more than double the cost for production, which I think is a scam.
I used to host the Kent Cup at Beaverhills and 1 year I decided to keep cost down for the shooters I made up a huge batch of chillie and bought a few buns. When I went to do the same thing the next year I was told I couldn't do that by the guys at Beaverhills, why because they weren't making any money on me cooking lunch. The kent cup became the P&D open which hasn't been held for a few years now.
I think lunch should be an option that the shooter has a choice over.
I can buy a lot of subway for $25.
I used to shoot 1000 registered targets or 1200 every year for 10 years, I haven't shot a single one this year and only shot the Cash shoot last year. Seems to me the money isn't going back to the shooter like they do at most events in the USA. FS
If you are catering a steak supper, i cant see it being under $25. I dont care whether they give out shells or not, all I'm saying is the costs dont seem unreasonable for what you get. I enjoy every shoot I go too.
Not only does it seem that the money is not going back to the shooters, it seems that the needs for about 5% of the shooters to have more challenging targets are at the expense of 95% of the shooters who just want to bust hunter difficulty targets. Difficult targets or easy fluffy targets, the best shooters will still win the day, however many new shooters do not come back if the targets are too difficult. Maybe if the top tier feel the need for more difficult presentations the association should organize shoots just for them. Wait a minute. That is what the association is doing as evidenced by the dropping attendance over the last few years. I have stayed away from registered shoots for just these reasons. It's not too difficult because I have lots of company of those who feel the same way.
I think the association should check their lists and check in with those who have dropped away and ask the reason. If they really want to promote the sport among the regular shooter or those who are not wealthy and have to work to pay for their powder, they have to address the preceptions that many regular shooters have.
I think the association should check their lists and check in with those who have dropped away and ask the reason. If they really want to promote the sport among the regular shooter or those who are not wealthy and have to work to pay for their powder, they have to address the preceptions that many regular shooters have.
NZClaybuster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I think that Covey Ridge has an incorrect view of who runs the shoots. The club sets the targets and the prizes and the price, perhaps you should address these issues with them? I have said before that the association is nothing more than people & the decisions made are made by the people that show up, for the people that show up. The table is open for you all to sit at. The fact that some people choose not to show up and then complain a out the decisions made demonstrates their level of interest, and participation. Elect reps you feel have. Elect the reps you feel would represent your ideas or bring them to the appropriate forum. Online whining is best left to the occupy movement or the student protesters in Que.
I feel that I have answered the same comments multiple times to the best of my ability.
Thank you for your interest in a sport I enjoy so much.
J
I feel that I have answered the same comments multiple times to the best of my ability.
Thank you for your interest in a sport I enjoy so much.
J
I know who runs the shoots. The club or the range owners. The association only santions the club to hold the shoot and registers the targets. For this they charge a fee.I do not see much of this fee going anytwhere near promoting the sport among the majority of the shooters. Yes there is lots of whining! Most of the whining I have experienced is from certain members of the association and excutive. Most of the whining was directed towards a certain club that used to host registered shoots. A shoot run by 100% volunteers. A certain hoity toity from the association got his feelings hurt as well as a few members of the club. It was a silly feud, but the association answered it by holding a meeting out of province and voting to withdraw sanction of the shoot and move the shoot to another venue. All members of the board who were available were not invited to attend and vote. The club answered this decision by deciding not to hold registered shoots. As far as elected reps? Like Federal and Provincial politics, the reps line up beside hoity toity and those who do not do not get invited to vote. BTW I will and do show up, but my support will go to the non registered shoots.
The real truth is that the world is run by those who can afford to show up and then those who can afford that luxury control everything that suits their agenda.
NZClaybuster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I cannot believe that you are still bringing this up. There was not a scheduled meeting. There was a meeting called at an out of province shoot. The shoot was well attended enough to have a quorum of the board. I was not at this shoot. I was disappointed that I was not contacted by phone, but there is no guarantee that I would have been able to answer it. The meeting was called by the duly elected president regarding his concerns regarding the communication between the club which shall be named at you discretion, you have chosen not to identify them and I will respect that.
There are requirement that must be made to hold a provincial championship and when those requirements were communicated to the club there was not a satisfactory response that those requirements be met.
There was no feud, there were bad manners and bad reactions. I am sure that happens occasionally with any group of people.
If you still feel that you will not support the association, i am not sure you have any complaints to make. Please remember the association is just people. Nothing more or less.
Hot barrells and good shooting.
PS it cost next to nothing to show up and help out.
There are requirement that must be made to hold a provincial championship and when those requirements were communicated to the club there was not a satisfactory response that those requirements be met.
There was no feud, there were bad manners and bad reactions. I am sure that happens occasionally with any group of people.
If you still feel that you will not support the association, i am not sure you have any complaints to make. Please remember the association is just people. Nothing more or less.
Hot barrells and good shooting.
PS it cost next to nothing to show up and help out.
I appreciate your efforts - sincerely. I just firmly believe we are at a bit of a crossroads. I believe many are just as happy to shoot a target and share some comraderie - whether a target is registered or not.
I was at the shoot where the meeting was called....
If you would like details send me a PM.
How do you know what anyone does or does not do? That club where we last spoke is my club. I have manned the desk at our league shoot for 3 years straight. I have showed up and slugged targets when the semi arrives. This year I brought a whole squad of newbies for our trap league and now they are members. You just don't know? At the last shoot that you enjoyed so much, you told another member that we should have more shoots like this. I am sure you would! As I recall the member told you that the shoot requires a lot of work and asked if you would help. Sorry gotta work? Well I work to. I work part time to pay for my powder and for those three years of league workl I took an extra day off to see the job done. I could go on and on, but I just do when I can. I would say that I love the sport every bit as much as you do. I just do not love the association which seems to be driven by the ajenda of one man. You volunteer your time as a board member. Well, power to you! I just do what can and when I can but I do choose where I can. Gawd, I hope you are not going to send me a two page word document like the other guy did, listing all your volunteer work for the association?
Covey, I think most of us who care about shooting do a pile of work around our clubs. All four gun clubs I belong to are non commercial and exist entirely based on volunteer labor.
You seem to have a lot of criticisms of association, maybe quite valid, however I have not noticed a lot alternative suggestions. I haven't noticed a lot of positive suggestions from anyone on this thread.
I am not in the inner circle by any means, and have no idea's what the internal politics of the association are, but I'd sure like to see it survive, and I'd like to see sporting clays grow in every way, including registered shoots.
What about having shoots where you can shoot registered or not. There can be a cheaper entry to shoot non registered, no one tracks your scores, and there are no prizes for those who are not registered. Door prizes etc would be fine. For those who want to shoot registered, they can pay the extra, qualify for medals, prizes etc. Why can't both those exist at one shoot. No extra course setup for a place already doing a registered shoot to allow a cheaper alternative that brings more people in the door for the course owner.
This might reduce membership as people don't have to buy one, but maybe it will bring some non assoc. shooters out, and when they see how a registered shoot works, maybe next time they will join up so they can qualify.
I still think some sort of A and B stand setup would really even out the scores between the classes. I realize that is more work for the course owners, and changes like this would need discussion with them, however not every station needs two stands, sometimes just doing report pair vs true pair. Or maybe if a pair has one really nasty bird, it's a following pair off the easier machine for D and E class. The biggest work may be signage for each class more then extra stands. Maybe the association should come up with a simple signage strategy, and provide the clubs with this so it's standardized everywhere. Even outside of registered shoots owners may find having a couple stands set up a way to vary up their course night to night for regular shooters without having to make large changes. If out of 20 stations 8 or 10 had alternate stands, or a change up between true and report, or possibly a change between true and a following pair, you could really change it up. The other 12 could be the same for everyone.
Just tossing out idea's, feel free to bash on them, I just feel this thread needs less complaining and more suggestions. Lets worry about the sport instead of the politics of it. That's not to dismiss the complaints, but lets move in a positive direction.
You seem to have a lot of criticisms of association, maybe quite valid, however I have not noticed a lot alternative suggestions. I haven't noticed a lot of positive suggestions from anyone on this thread.
I am not in the inner circle by any means, and have no idea's what the internal politics of the association are, but I'd sure like to see it survive, and I'd like to see sporting clays grow in every way, including registered shoots.
What about having shoots where you can shoot registered or not. There can be a cheaper entry to shoot non registered, no one tracks your scores, and there are no prizes for those who are not registered. Door prizes etc would be fine. For those who want to shoot registered, they can pay the extra, qualify for medals, prizes etc. Why can't both those exist at one shoot. No extra course setup for a place already doing a registered shoot to allow a cheaper alternative that brings more people in the door for the course owner.
This might reduce membership as people don't have to buy one, but maybe it will bring some non assoc. shooters out, and when they see how a registered shoot works, maybe next time they will join up so they can qualify.
I still think some sort of A and B stand setup would really even out the scores between the classes. I realize that is more work for the course owners, and changes like this would need discussion with them, however not every station needs two stands, sometimes just doing report pair vs true pair. Or maybe if a pair has one really nasty bird, it's a following pair off the easier machine for D and E class. The biggest work may be signage for each class more then extra stands. Maybe the association should come up with a simple signage strategy, and provide the clubs with this so it's standardized everywhere. Even outside of registered shoots owners may find having a couple stands set up a way to vary up their course night to night for regular shooters without having to make large changes. If out of 20 stations 8 or 10 had alternate stands, or a change up between true and report, or possibly a change between true and a following pair, you could really change it up. The other 12 could be the same for everyone.
Just tossing out idea's, feel free to bash on them, I just feel this thread needs less complaining and more suggestions. Lets worry about the sport instead of the politics of it. That's not to dismiss the complaints, but lets move in a positive direction.
Good comments Scar.
I certainly don't wish to only complain, and unfortunately I do know a bit of the politics. The real shame is that guys can't leave the personal stuff out of the operation of volunteer groups. I agree the ones that show up run the organizations, but often when there is backlash like this it is time for a reality check.
I think for our club (Lethbridge), the market for all of the stuff outside of the strictly "fun" targets is so small most of us are not prepared to go to the extra effort required for special stands targets etc. We don't have as strong a economy as the Northern guys, and most guys just want to break clay. It seems it is always the same 5 guys or so that show up to run the events, and I have also taken time off to set up. An extra day to spend with my family is a good thing.
There is a hunter class at most shoots, so the two tier stuff supposedly exists.
I sure don't know what the answers are for the association. My thoughts would be recruitment and retention should trump all other considerations. I and almost all guys will not be FITASC pros, compete in nationals etc etc with the high level stuff. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to do that, but I also recognize that OUR region is likely better served catering to the 95% of the shot gunning community that shoots less that 5 shoots a year...
I also believe that clubs like ours that can only seem to muster support for fun shoots still bring shooters to the game - and the ones who are serious or have a passion will end up seeking more targets/competition benefiting the association as well. I think lead in the air is a good thing - no matter what affiliation.
once again - my personal thoughts, not those of any club, group or association...
I certainly don't wish to only complain, and unfortunately I do know a bit of the politics. The real shame is that guys can't leave the personal stuff out of the operation of volunteer groups. I agree the ones that show up run the organizations, but often when there is backlash like this it is time for a reality check.
I think for our club (Lethbridge), the market for all of the stuff outside of the strictly "fun" targets is so small most of us are not prepared to go to the extra effort required for special stands targets etc. We don't have as strong a economy as the Northern guys, and most guys just want to break clay. It seems it is always the same 5 guys or so that show up to run the events, and I have also taken time off to set up. An extra day to spend with my family is a good thing.
There is a hunter class at most shoots, so the two tier stuff supposedly exists.
I sure don't know what the answers are for the association. My thoughts would be recruitment and retention should trump all other considerations. I and almost all guys will not be FITASC pros, compete in nationals etc etc with the high level stuff. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to do that, but I also recognize that OUR region is likely better served catering to the 95% of the shot gunning community that shoots less that 5 shoots a year...
I also believe that clubs like ours that can only seem to muster support for fun shoots still bring shooters to the game - and the ones who are serious or have a passion will end up seeking more targets/competition benefiting the association as well. I think lead in the air is a good thing - no matter what affiliation.
once again - my personal thoughts, not those of any club, group or association...
The hunter class is true, although I don't think it's supposed to be allowed at a registered shoot, and all they save are the association fees. I'm thinking more of a $100-$125 for fun shooters, vs the $145 to $160 for registered shooters. Fun shooters don't get scores posted, don't qualify for prizes (again door prizes etc would be different) or medals. If they see that their scores would place in some categories, maybe next time they will shoot it as registered.
I'm thinking this more for places that are doing registered shoots. If a registered shoot right now gets 20 guys, and a two class shoot would get 15 registered guys and 15 fun shooters, that seems to still be a win to me.
Of course it's easy for me to pontificate, as I don't run a sporting clays course (although I do sit on the executive of 3 non sporting clays gun ranges). Nor am I about to jump onto the CNSCA executive to help make the changes, at least not yet.
I really don't know why it is that shooters who shoot twice a year, think they should be able to shoot like the guys who dedicate their lives to it. No one expects the local rec hockey team to be able to beat the Oilers (well maybe somedays), yet they are upset if they show up to a shoot and are 30 targets behind a guy who lives and breathes shooting a shotgun.
We need to find a balance to bring in the new guys, yet keep the top dogs happy, because often it's the top dogs who put in the time and effort to keeping things running. Maybe being a non commercial operation my clays range is different, but while we love having the 40 people who come once or twice a month come shoot, it's the 5-8 who come twice a week that keep the club alive for the once in a while shooter. Without them, no one would be shooting, so they may be a minority, but it's important to keep them too, at least for us.
The other factor is it's the ones who show up all the time, who also do 95% of the work, so things end up set up the way they like it.
I'm thinking this more for places that are doing registered shoots. If a registered shoot right now gets 20 guys, and a two class shoot would get 15 registered guys and 15 fun shooters, that seems to still be a win to me.
Of course it's easy for me to pontificate, as I don't run a sporting clays course (although I do sit on the executive of 3 non sporting clays gun ranges). Nor am I about to jump onto the CNSCA executive to help make the changes, at least not yet.
I really don't know why it is that shooters who shoot twice a year, think they should be able to shoot like the guys who dedicate their lives to it. No one expects the local rec hockey team to be able to beat the Oilers (well maybe somedays), yet they are upset if they show up to a shoot and are 30 targets behind a guy who lives and breathes shooting a shotgun.
We need to find a balance to bring in the new guys, yet keep the top dogs happy, because often it's the top dogs who put in the time and effort to keeping things running. Maybe being a non commercial operation my clays range is different, but while we love having the 40 people who come once or twice a month come shoot, it's the 5-8 who come twice a week that keep the club alive for the once in a while shooter. Without them, no one would be shooting, so they may be a minority, but it's important to keep them too, at least for us.
The other factor is it's the ones who show up all the time, who also do 95% of the work, so things end up set up the way they like it.
Personally, I don't feel organizing a sport for advanced shooters should be incompatible with non-competitive shooting and it would be a mistake not to have both. I suspect the sport would be best supported financially and otherwise by getting out more people to shoot clays for fun or practice. So, I guess most of the effort should probably go into these things. We have a small group that shoot a couple of rounds of trap and a couple of skeet each week, for example. It is fun and it brings in as much money as the meat shoots after expenses. But where guys are going to go to get better or compete with better shooters if there isn't an organization to support such? The presence of good shooters competing shows us what is possible too and gives us something to aim for (I was going to say "shoot for", but that seems even worse.
) It's true that the competitive milieu is a different one from shooting for fun, and there can be aggressiveness and hard feelings there as well as formality and strict rules concerning venues and behaviour. The strict guidelines are needed with people competing if you want matches to work and if you want the competition to adequately reflect the discipline being participated in.
) It's true that the competitive milieu is a different one from shooting for fun, and there can be aggressiveness and hard feelings there as well as formality and strict rules concerning venues and behaviour. The strict guidelines are needed with people competing if you want matches to work and if you want the competition to adequately reflect the discipline being participated in.I think if there was a bit of a change in the guard within the association and the one club mentioned, whereby they could actually sit down and have a civil chat that it would go a long way.
There are actually two issues at hand - the "riff" that was developed last year and then the issue of reg vs. fun targets.
I think if the association is serious, they should try to meet with the club that the huge misunderstanding happened with.
Once that obstacle is passed a dialogue as to how to evolve the association to best meet the needs of the whole shooting community could begin.
Until then its pretty much a moot point. IMHO.
There are actually two issues at hand - the "riff" that was developed last year and then the issue of reg vs. fun targets.
I think if the association is serious, they should try to meet with the club that the huge misunderstanding happened with.
Once that obstacle is passed a dialogue as to how to evolve the association to best meet the needs of the whole shooting community could begin.
Until then its pretty much a moot point. IMHO.
