Relearning 9mm handloading (load specific)

[slushee]

My history with 9mm is that I own a Smith and Wesson M&P9. Great gun, love the performance with factory but I've never spent enough time understanding what I wanted to do with this platform. Initially I wanted a plinker so I grabbed some discounted bulk Remington FMJ RN 124 gr. and grabbed my trusty Hornady reloading manual. Using v-N350 (expensive right! First powder I found on the shelf from my manual so i went with it) I saw starting load 4.4 gr. (900fps) to max. 5.2 gr. (1050 fps).

I decided to use a Lee Dip which put me down at 5.1 gr. of v-N350 powder pushing my 124 gr. FMJ RN to approx. 1025 fps. Heavy and slow. And this is what i plinked with for a couple years.

Fast forward to today, and I watched a video on Underwoods +P Xtreme Defense 9mm round. Solid 90 gr. bullet traveling 1200 to 1300 fps that seems to have amazing 18" penetration along with a huge permanent cavity. This got me to thinking about my load, and maybe I could be loading a better performing round with better ballistics.

Here is the load data that is making me scratch my head using Bullet Remington 124 gr FMJ RN and Powder V-N350

Hornady
Start 4.4 gr. (900 fps) - Max 5.2 gr. (1050 fps)

Sierra (only listing a 125 gr. bullet)
Start 4.5 gr. (900 fps) - Max 5.6 gr. (1100 fps)

Lee Precision
Start 5.6 gr. (1161 fps) - Max 6.1 gr. (1232 fps)

First question, why is Lee Precision's load starting at the two other's Max load? Is it safe? I have no issue running +P loads in my M&P9 but the manuals don't specify what is considered +P.

Second question, all three manuals show a different COAL for the same 124 gr. bullet. Considering I don't use theirs and am using Remington, should I take the time to see what COAL I need to be using for the Remington bullets or just use the COAL from the manual that I decide to end up using?

Third question, what suggestions do you have for loading a 124 gr. bullet for more defensive ballistics then the one I had originally just designed to plink with. How fast should a 124 gr. bullet be traveling to be considered a defensive round?

I appreciate your knowledge on this subject. I'm very knowledgeable regarding .223 Rem and .308 Win but I have kind of neglected learning much about the 9mm as I was just happy to plink. Now that I have some interest in having it preform, I'm curious what you all are loading these bullets to.

EDIT
I might also be interested in replicating the 9mm NATO round (+P) to kind of skip to the head of the line as I can assume the NATO round has pretty good ballistics. If anyone knows the recipe for that?

 

[rodregier]

1 - each manual is using slightly different components and assembly details which can account for the differences.
Standard general advice in reloading is start low and work up.

2 - Published opinions on OAL vary some too. Each projectile design is slightly different which affects best practice.
In the specific case of the Remington 124g FMJRN projectile, I like an OAL of 1.150

3 - No right answer as such. Factory 9mmx19 defensive loadings tend to be in two categories - standard pressure and +P.
Defensive loadings will also be using a hollowpoint projectile designed to expand, not a FMJ.
There are SAAMI standards for standard pressure and +P 9mmx19 loadings.
That typically translates to 115g HP@1145 ft/sec, and 124g HP@1130 ft/sec for standard pressure.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf

One of the more accessible in Canada 9mm projectiles designed to expand is
the Hornady XTP, which is available in both 115g and 124g weights.
It's also a very accurate projectile, which is a nice bonus.

If you're looking for NATO spec levels, your best bet is to work up a maximum loading
based on the reloading manual published data. Some powders will permit faster velocity
loadings while keeping working pressure at safe levels.

Unless you are going to use expanding projectiles or are trying to match a factory loading for practice,
focus on making a safe loading that reliably functions your chosen firearm(s). There is always
a price to paid in constantly shooting maximum loadings:

Reduced reuse life in cartridge cases
Wear on firearms
Larger amounts of powder consumed
Recoil fatigue for the operator

My goal in loading practice ammunition in 9mmx19 is to make IPSC power factor floor with a modest margin.
That also tends to put the loading into good functioning range of factory-stock firearms.

That works out to 124g @ 1070 ft/sec
115g @ 1156 ft/sec

Unless you own and use a chronograph to measure your loadings,
you don't really know what velocities they are actually achieving.

The published load data will only be in the general ballpark
of what you are actually getting.

Hope that helps

 

[Grawfr]

1. This is where reloading is art more than science, since we don't have a pressure gauge on our barrel to tell us exactly when we reach max peak chamber pressure...

I really wonder at the Hornady max charge being 0.4gr lower than the starting load from Lee Precision... Something doesn't seem quite right, but I don't have the experience to say what. The Hornady data is for a COAL of 1.150" too, which is at the high end for 9x19mm (1.000"-1.169"). I'd expect such low charge recommendations for a shorter COAL than that.

Lyman's 49th doesn't list the N350 in its tables, but Vihta Vuori has data for 9mm 124gr FMJ-RN on its website, giving a 4.9gr to 5.7gr range for COAL of 1.142". That puts them right in between the Sierra and Lee data. I'm thinking that the Hornady data is suspect (too low). Could they have typoed the COAL?.


2. As it happens, I was on the range yesterday trying to see if COAL made any difference in my shooting. Using a Beretta Cx4 with a 19¾" barrel, I shot "paired" loads (4 groups of 5 rounds for each of the 4 test loads) for which the only difference was the COAL. All of these reloads were made using IMI brass fired twice, CCI 550 primers, Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder and CamPro 115gr FCP-RN bullets. Charge range is 5.3-5.9gr for this combo (data from CamPro).

a. 5.3gr powder, COAL 1.120"
b. 5.3gr powder, COAL 1.150"

c. 5.7gr powder, COAL 1.120"
d. 5.7gr powder, COAL 1.150"

The results were: no significant difference in accuracy for my Cx4. And not very accurate in the first place either, all groups being spread for every load from 3 to 5 MOA in size. The 1.150" brass came out very dirty out of the Cx4, the 1.120" brass less so (though still quite sooty, it seems to be a characteristic of that carbine: even commercial loads come out dirty on one side. Possibly a slightly oversize chamber due to its straight blowback design).

To be fair, I was not expecting much precision from this test: CamPro bullets have a distressing variation in their length and the shape of their nose. I've measured thirty of them and got anything from 0.526" to 0.537" in length (avg. 0.533"), and the location of the shoulder changed constantly between them. Some have very visibly flatter nose than others. As a result, using a Hornady seat/crimp die, I find it really difficult to get consistent COAL in my reloads. They can vary by as much ±0.005" and sometimes more. The die "imprint" on the shoulder is always at the same distance from the base of the case, but how much bullet shows above that mark varies. No way to be sure if the actual volume left in the case is the same or if it varies, too.

I'm going to get some better quality projectiles and see how much difference those will make. I've shot consistent 2MOA with Geco ammo, so I know it's not me or the firearm that's sending the bullets all over the targets. Perhaps with better bullets the COAL will start making a noticeable difference? We'll see.


3. I have really no idea... someone told me the RCMP favors 147gr bullets in the 950-1000 ft/s range. I'd say that as long as the bullet can kill the target at 25m, it's perfectly adequate for defense.


P.S. Replicating +P is easy... in a way... just overcharge your load by 10%. There's several problems, though: Are you using a firearm that's rated for it? Are you using brass that can take it without rupture (is that brass rated for +P too)? And you know you'll cause some major wear and tear on your firearm, with at the limit the chance of something blowing up in your hand as you shoot. Is it worth it?

It's all up to how much risk you can mitigate and how much you're willing to take. If all you want is a faster bullet, I'd say just use a lighter bullet?

 

[slushee]

Both responses were very informative and I thank you for that. I guess my natural reaction would be to ask, "What would you do with these 124 gr. FMJ's"? The only reason I ask is because I have 2000 of them and 2 lbs of V-N350 (which goes a long way in 9mm!)

I think i'm going to experiment with loading them to a little higher charge using the Max Charge around 5.7 as everyone except Lee Precision is close to that mark making me question the Lee Precision Data (cross checking that data with Vihta Vuori itself). I of course will work up to that charge from my current 5.1 and see if the accuracy stays within acceptable limits.

I will also research what the signs of overpressure look like in a 9mm before I do any of this. Thanks for the information. Shoot safe!

EDIT

Vihta Vuori Published Data

N350 Min 4.9gr (1119fps) - Max 5.7gr. (1237fps) with COAL of 1.142

I like these numbers out of any of the data I have available. Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Ganderite]

If you really want to have some defensive ammo "just in case" - buy a box of factory ammunition. This is the best documented and most comprehensive evaluation I have seen:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

A box of Federal HST, Hornady Critical Defence, Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Sabre would be good. The test used short barreled "carry" guns, and as you can see, some ammo did not perform.

Since you load your own ammo, you can buy a box r two of Hornady XTP in 124 or 147 and make some defensive ammo to practice with. get a can of Unique, Blue Dot or Power Pistol (my preference) so you can get the appropriate velocity.