Reloading .223 for AR and VZ

IM_Lugger

IM_Lugger

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I've been loading for pistols for years, but not so much for my rifles. So have few of questions.

1) How many times can the brass be used in an AR and/or VZ rifle? Is one platform harder on the brass than the other? or both the same being semi-autos? I heard someone where they can only be used 3-4 but find it hard to believe.

2) If I neck size only is it ok to shoot the mixed brass in both guns?

3) How many reloads does it take before you need to trim cases as they get out of spec? This hasn't been much of an issue with pistol rounds. If the factory crimp die is used is the case length no longer critical as with pistol ammo?

Also, if I want to load .223 on a Lee Classic Cast Turret Press, I just need a Universal charging die to I can use it with my Auto Disk?
 
Gotta FL size every time out of a semi, otherwise they might be too expanded to chamber (from the previous firing). Given this, they are good out of either gun any time. You may find one gun is harder than the other on brass, if the chamber is a little looser.

Don't know how many firings you'll get. I'm in the middle of finding out the same thing. I do know that FL sizing is much more stressful on the metal than just neck sizing, so not as many firings as out of a bolt gun. Inspect cases frequently.

Gotta measure em every time after sizing. Probably trim after 3-4 firings (that's a guess, and assumes they were trimmed to length to start with).
 
I would like to know more about reloading for an AR as well. Been collecting military crimped brass and looking to get the dies, crimp swag, heads.

I have a LNL AP, powder, primers.

The search engine sucks on here, need to do more research!
 
Can't speak to the VZ, but generally,

- 4 to 5 reloads max ( I won't push it and quite frankly I'm lucky to still have a batch after 5 with attrition). Need to anneal or think about annealing if you want more than 2-3.
- FL size your brass. Unless you have a match cut chamber, mixed brass should be fine.
- trim after every firing as sometimes it is likely other brass could get mixed in with a lot and some brass will grow more than others (in the case of using a mixed lot). If you trim to 1.750" though you should be able to get away with two firings (or maybe more depending on how hot your ammo is) between firings. Trim to lengths are fairly critical though in an AR and will cause hard extractions so best not to flirt with disaster (if competing as an example). If you are using a Lee factory crimp die, the crimp will obviously be much more uniform (more consistent pressures too) on cases that are uniform in length.
- Never used a Lee turret press, sorry.
 
Make sure you don't trim too much off though. You really want that crimp to be right in the cannelure. If you don't crimp your cartridges properly you're flirting with a kaboom. The bullet can/will get pushed back into the neck of the cartridge causing excess pressure when fired.

Also, if you're mixing cases, make sure there aren't any military cases mixed in with the commercial stuff. The miltary cases are a smaller internal volume and should be used with reduced loads (about 1 gr less powder).

The manufacure of the case will determine the number of times you can reload it. Some people have claimed to reload IVI over a dozen times with lower powder charges, where as many commercial cases can only be refilled 4-5 times.
 
IM_Lugger said:
I've been loading for pistols for years, but not so much for my rifles. So have few of questions.

1) How many times can the brass be used in an AR and/or VZ rifle? Is one platform harder on the brass than the other? or both the same being semi-autos? I heard someone where they can only be used 3-4 but find it hard to believe.

2) If I neck size only is it ok to shoot the mixed brass in both guns?

3) How many reloads does it take before you need to trim cases as they get out of spec? This hasn't been much of an issue with pistol rounds. If the factory crimp die is used is the case length no longer critical as with pistol ammo?

Also, if I want to load .223 on a Lee Classic Cast Turret Press, I just need a Universal charging die to I can use it with my Auto Disk?
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1) Semi's are hard on brass. I would expect 4-5 firings as max before you start to have a lot of damaged brass. Some of this also depends on how hot your loads are. I am lucky to get 5 loads out of brass in my Garand, using mild loads.

2) You will need to full length size every time, especially if you are mixing brass between the rifles. Semi's do not tolerate tight fitting brass the way a bolt action will.

3) Not sure on .223 in an AR, but FL sizing will move more brass than neck sizing does. I would guess once every 3-4 firings, but the only way to know is to measure after every round of use and develop your own track record under your particular operating conditions. You shouldn't need to crimp your cases, which helps reduce stress on the case mouths. I certainly don't crimp for any of my semi-auto rifles and have had no problems to date.

4) I think that is correct, but you will need the double disk setup to be able to throw enough powder.


Mark
 
mmattockx said:
You shouldn't need to crimp your cases, which helps reduce stress on the case mouths. I certainly don't crimp for any of my semi-auto rifles and have had no problems to date.
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You are a very lucky man. Not crimping your loads in the AR15 is very dangerous. A mild crimp isn't going to wreck your brass or reduce case life, but it will allow the firearm to function without risking converting it into a bomb.
 
cancer said:
You are a very lucky man. Not crimping your loads in the AR15 is very dangerous. A mild crimp isn't going to wreck your brass or reduce case life, but it will allow the firearm to function without risking converting it into a bomb.
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Every .224 bullet I have used so far has no cannelure, how do you suggest I crimp those? Why is the very mild recoil going to jam bullets into cases when it has never happened even in my Garand? My Hornady manual makes no mention of crimping being crucial to anything when loading for the AR, what did they miss?

The only place that crimping is mentioned as imperative (in any literature that I have read) is for large bore revolvers and tube magazine fed rifles. The revolvers will have a bullet walk forward and lock up the action and the rifles can indeed set a bullet back far enough to raise pressures dangerously. The AR fits neither of these categories.

If you have information from a respected reloading source that says different, please post it. I am not interested in blowing up a rifle, even if my experience to date says that crimping is unnecessary for semi-auto's.


Mark
 
mmattockx said:
Every .224 bullet I have used so far has no cannelure, how do you suggest I crimp those? Why is the very mild recoil going to jam bullets into cases when it has never happened even in my Garand? My Hornady manual makes no mention of crimping being crucial to anything when loading for the AR, what did they miss?

The only place that crimping is mentioned as imperative (in any literature that I have read) is for large bore revolvers and tube magazine fed rifles. The revolvers will have a bullet walk forward and lock up the action and the rifles can indeed set a bullet back far enough to raise pressures dangerously. The AR fits neither of these categories.

If you have information from a respected reloading source that says different, please post it. I am not interested in blowing up a rifle, even if my experience to date says that crimping is unnecessary for semi-auto's.


Mark
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It's not the recoil of the rifle that is the problem, it's the cartridge being stripped from the magazine and rammed face first up the feed ramp that is the problem for the AR15 in particular. This aggressive action of chambering rounds is why NATO spec ammo must be crimped. I've seen bullets pushed into the necks of cartridges in my own guns with lousy ammo, it happens and it's dangerous.

You don't need to have a cannelure to put a mild crimp on the neck of your cartridges. I suspect that the reason the cannelure was introduced was only to help prevent dinting the bullet when you crimp. Any added tighness at the neck to hold the bullet as it travels up the feed ramp is far better than nothing.

If you want sources, the ABCs of Reloading by Bill Chevalier goes into the topic of crimping ammo for auto loaders in detail. Also, the Gun Digest Book of the AR-15 by Patrick Sweeney has a short section about needing to shoot crimped ammunition in the AR15 specifically.

Stay safe.
 
Hornady75HPBTCrimped.jpg


Crimped round on top followed by a pulled 77gr. SMK that was crimped same as the above round, and a virgin 77smk below.
Crimping for me has reduced the velocity spread and IMHO has no detriment to accuracy (quite the opposite).

For rounds that come with a cannalure, I just seat to the middle as they will not always be consistent with the ogive (which you are indexing off when seating).
In most cases those rounds OAL will be well below the 2.250". Mix and match military brass with commercial to your hearts content - most .223/5.56 brass is near on identical ( unless of course you are trying to make match ammo).
 
beltfed said:
Mix and match military brass with commercial to your hearts content - most .223/5.56 brass is near on identical ( unless of course you are trying to make match ammo).
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For the 5.56x45 mm cartridge, nearly all sources and reloading manuals state that you should reduce the load by about 1 gr when using military cases, in comparison to commercial brass. Beltfed, are you saying that reducing that one grain is negligible?
 
cancer said:
For the 5.56x45 mm cartridge, nearly all sources and reloading manuals state that you should reduce the load by about 1 gr when using military cases, in comparison to commercial brass. Beltfed, are you saying that reducing that one grain is negligible?
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For the most part yes.
You are as likely to find a difference between two commercial manufacturers cases as you would between a 5.56 and .223 marked ones.
The differences between 5.56 cases and commercial .223 cases are not likely to be significant - this common held misconception is a hold over from 7.62 and .308. Those I would check/ segregate from each other.

The caveat as always would be something like combining a match cut chamber with a fairly hot load - in that situation one would be likely to use all one batch of the same lot/ manufacturer anyhow.
With a reasonable load in an AR (that likely has a 5.56 or at least a Wilde chamber) there are no issues.
 
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