Reloading 30-30 and my cast boolits are making "shavings".

greg11

greg11

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Okay, I ordered a Lee Deluxe Die set, which was a mistake to begin with because it didn't come with a frikkin Factory Crimp Die....

All was fine when I was using some Hornady 150 grainers, as they were copper coated.

Now I'm using some cast boolits I made with my production pot and mold. I've aloxed em and they're lookin great.

However...

It seems that the case isn't flared at all to accept the projectile. This results in a bunch of shavings and the bullet almost never goes all the way in without taking a slight slant out of concentricity (i think that's the right term.). In anycase, many times the projectile's axis in the cartidge is not parallel with the casing.

Removing the shavings is annoying and an added step. The concentricity makes me wonder how these will perform. So...

I know there is the universal expanding die... But all my die stations are used up in my 4 hole turret. Decapping/FLresizer, Powder, Seat bullet, Factory crimp die...

I read on another forum just now that you can do this:
You can order the decapper/expander from the .303 British Pacesetter die set, part #SE2358, $3. From Lee. Put that pin in your Lee 30-30 Full length sizing die. That will give you a larger inside neck diameter for cast boolits.
Click to expand...

Anyone know about this or think it would work?
 
Sounds like you're using a progressive press. You should be able to screw down your powder die (usually the second station) to get a flare or bell on your casing. Another thing you should be doing with your brass (one time deal) is using a de-burring/chamfer tool to put a bevel on both the outside of the case (to aid in entry to the resizing die) and on the inside to aid in bullet seating. You can also turn your case 180 degrees after you have seated the bullet half way into the case and then finish seating. It slows things down considerably but may help if they are looking crooked in the case.
 
Basically with cast bullets you need to put a little bit of a larger opening on your case mouth so that the bullet is not shaved as you describe.

The .303 idea is a cheap and easy way of doing this, but it wouldn't be a good idea for use in jacketed bullets, so you would have to switch it when doing so. It also might not be good for case life as 30-30 is already relatively thin cases.

The Lee rifle dies do not offer an option to expand unfortunately.

That said I have found that just putting a little more than usual chamfer in the inside of the case mouth gets rid of most if not all of the problem.

I haven't suffered any real setbacks with the little bit of shaving that does happen, but I only load lead cast bullets for light plinkers so you might see some leading if you want to push them faster.

If you find it is an issue Lee, and others do make an expander die that would bell the case mouth for you. They are pretty cheap.
 
Oh and as far as crimp goes, you have to follow the instructions with the seater die and it will crimp I believe, but I use the lee FCD and it works very well.

That said, and especially with lead cast bullets crimping is not that necessary unless you are belling the cases alot, then it will be more to ensure the belling is gone and they feed reliably.

To crimp or not to crimp is an ongoing argument, and you will get different answers, but my opinion is "why not?".
 
mlehtovaara said:
Oh and as far as crimp goes, you have to follow the instructions with the seater die and it will crimp I believe, but I use the lee FCD and it works very well.

That said, and especially with lead cast bullets crimping is not that necessary unless you are belling the cases alot, then it will be more to ensure the belling is gone and they feed reliably.

To crimp or not to crimp is an ongoing argument, and you will get different answers, but my opinion is "why not?".
Click to expand...

The seating die should crimp fine. It isn't a discussion regarding crimping for use in tubular mags. If OP is running 30-30 in a typical lever action, he needs to crimp his ammo.


Mark
 
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I agree, for the longest time I used the Lee Universal case expanding die to "bell" the cast mouths or a Lyman "M" die,both work okay but add an extra step and also work the case mouth and brass fails quicker. Now I use "in-line bullet seating dies" especially those made by Meacham, Vickerman and even RCBS. This is the most accurate way of seating bullets with little or no run-out, and no shaving of cast bullets.
 
mmattockx said:
The seating die should crimp fine. It isn't a discussion regarding crimping for use in tubular mags. If OP is running 30/30 in a typical lever action, he needs to crimp his ammo.


Mark
Click to expand...

His first line mentions his apparent need or want for the Lee FCD. That is the reason for my post on crimping.

But if you want to continue the discussion, unless you are loading heavy recoiling loads, or hunting, there is really no need to crimp for typical range use.

Ive loaded hundreds of cast lead plinker without a problem, and never experienced any bullet setback, only occasional feeding hangups in my 336.

I can agree to disagree on that topic however.

But now we have turned the OP's thread into the debate I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for proving my point. ;)

Sorry OP.
 
If you properly bevel the inside of your case necks, it's very rare to have a problem with the case necks shaving lead. Unless you are a bench rest shooter looking for the last thousandth of an inch on your bullet group, the M-die probably isn't worth your trouble on bottle necked cases.
Grouch
 
greg11 said:
Okay, I ordered a Lee Deluxe Die set, which was a mistake to begin with because it didn't come with a frikkin Factory Crimp Die....

All was fine when I was using some Hornady 150 grainers, as they were copper coated.

Now I'm using some cast boolits I made with my production pot and mold. I've aloxed em and they're lookin great.

However...

It seems that the case isn't flared at all to accept the projectile. This results in a bunch of shavings and the bullet almost never goes all the way in without taking a slight slant out of concentricity (i think that's the right term.). In anycase, many times the projectile's axis in the cartidge is not parallel with the casing.
You need to flare the case mouth a bit more. You have to back off the seating die so it isn't crimping till the bullet is fully seated.The Lee seating die will crimp the case mouth into a crimping grove a bit, if the bullet has a crimping grove

Removing the shavings is annoying and an added step. The concentricity makes me wonder how these will perform. So...

I know there is the universal expanding die... But all my die stations are used up in my 4 hole turret. Decapping/FLresizer, Powder, Seat bullet, Factory crimp die...

I read on another forum just now that you can do this:


Anyone know about this or think it would work?
Click to expand...

My 2 cents
 
Chamfer ream the inside edge of your case necks and the problem will probably go away. The little (lyman/lee/rcbs/etc.) chamfer reamer hand tools work fine and once it's done it never needs to be done again. One that works well with cast bullets is the lyman VLD chamfer reamer, but any of them will work for you.
 
mlehtovaara said:
His first line mentions his apparent need or want for the Lee FCD. That is the reason for my post on crimping.

But if you want to continue the discussion, unless you are loading heavy recoiling loads, or hunting, there is really no need to crimp for typical range use.

Ive loaded hundreds of cast lead plinker without a problem, and never experienced any bullet setback, only occasional feeding hangups in my 336.

I can agree to disagree on that topic however.

But now we have turned the OP's thread into the debate I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for proving my point. ;)

Sorry OP.
Click to expand...

No worries, I wan't dumping on you (not intentionally, anyway). I can agree that crimping might not be necessary with light gallery loads. With heavier loads it is a very good idea to avoid setback.

Back to our original programming.

I have never used an FCD on bottleneck cartridges, but it is the cat's ass for straight wall cartridges like .44 Mag and 45-70.


Mark
 
ben hunchak said:
I agree, for the longest time I used the Lee Universal case expanding die to "bell" the cast mouths or a Lyman "M" die,both work okay but add an extra step and also work the case mouth and brass fails quicker. Now I use "in-line bullet seating dies" especially those made by Meacham, Vickerman and even RCBS. This is the most accurate way of seating bullets with little or no run-out, and no shaving of cast bullets.
Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


While I have never used Vickerman dies, I have used both RCBS in-line dies as well as A couple of sets by Meacham (.30WCF, .33 Winchester and .45-70). Mostly I've used the Lyman M dies though as Ben mentions they add a step and do tend to overwork the brass a bit. Not an issue with the .30-30 as have 2 or 3 5-gal buckets full of 1F brass for that :cool:, but it becomes more critical with the .45-70...
 
TPK said:
Sounds like you're using a progressive press. You should be able to screw down your powder die (usually the second station) to get a flare or bell on your casing.
Click to expand...

Besides the Lee powder dies mentioned, Dillon powder dies for bottleneck rifle cases do not expand the necks, either.
 
The descriptions here are possibly mixing new handloaders up a bit......All dies expand case necks as part of the resizing process, but they do not "bell or flare" the case mouth to except cast bullets. Most 3 die sets meant for straight wall cases have provision for belling case mouths for cast bullets. So if you are reloading bottleneck cases with a 2 die set you may need some way to "bell case mouths" for your cast bullets, if chamfering/deburring isn't enough. That's where the Lee universal, Lyman M die or "in-line seating dies" come in!
 
I reload quite a bit for 45 colt in a lever. I have no problem reloading cast boolits with the lee dies.
A strong crimp is necessary in a tubular magazine for safety and to achieve optimum burn of the powder to reduce and even eliminate leading issues.
But I will ONLY crimp with the factory seating and crimping die And NOT USE a LEE Factory CRIMP DIE with any cast bullets.
The reason being I cannot see the sense of casting the correct bullet diameter to obtain obulation and accurate ammo and then squeezing the poor thing back down below the optimum diameter.
I have found that .002 over bore diameter has given me the best accuracy in cast bullets ; so why resize them in a factory crimp die??
A Factory Crimp Die is fine with jacketed bullets but not hardcast or swaged.
There is no reason that a correct crimp cannot be achieved without the LFCD.
What was used before this invention?
My 2 cents for what its worth

Doc.
 
Doc.Holliday said:
I reload quite a bit for 45 colt in a lever. I have no problem reloading cast boolits with the lee dies.
A strong crimp is necessary in a tubular magazine for safety and to achieve optimum burn of the powder to reduce and even eliminate leading issues.
But I will ONLY crimp with the factory seating and crimping die And NOT USE a LEE Factory CRIMP DIE with any cast bullets.
The reason being I cannot see the sense of casting the correct bullet diameter to obtain obulation and accurate ammo and then squeezing the poor thing back down below the optimum diameter.
I have found that .002 over bore diameter has given me the best accuracy in cast bullets ; so why resize them in a factory crimp die??
A Factory Crimp Die is fine with jacketed bullets but not hardcast or swaged.
There is no reason that a correct crimp cannot be achieved without the LFCD.
What was used before this invention?
My 2 cents for what its worth

Doc.
Click to expand...

FYI - The factory crimp die only puts a taper crimp on straight walled pistol cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.

Cartridges such as the 30-30 it puts a "factory crimp" which is only crimping the very edge of the case mouth(and is adjustable) and will not taper crimp or resize your bullets like say a .45acp FCD might.
 
mlehtovaara said:
FYI - The factory crimp die only puts a taper crimp on straight walled pistol cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.

Cartridges such as the 30-30 it puts a "factory crimp" which is only crimping the very edge of the case mouth(and is adjustable) and will not taper crimp or resize your bullets like say a .45acp FCD might.
Click to expand...

I will not use a Lee Factory Crimp Die To correct in my opinion loading technique.
This invention is unnecessary and will not correct poor reloading issues. And we will in the end most likely to agree to disagree over its resizing of cast boolits. I have tried it and discarded it Except for jacketed bullets.
Regards
Doc
 
Well I agree with the good Doctor.......You don't want anything squeezing the loaded round including the bullet after spending all that time sizing bullets to the right diameter. I don't use any of the dies mentioned but it is the same as using a resizing die to taper crimp(using the die with the guts removed).
 
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