I had a thought of getting a single shot 45-70 to reload for it, because i can cast the 45. I also thought of mixing it up by using black powder for fun, the cartridge was originally 70 grains of black so, i dont forsee problems. Does anyone have experience doing this?
reloading 45-70 gov w/ black powder
- Thread starter StiffDrink
- Start date
Boolitcaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Done it a little bit.
A load that worked well for me was 60 grains of 2F, a card, a grease cookie and then another card. Powder was dispensed using a drop tube. With the grease cookie and cards added, there is no airspace and the powder had to be compressed slightly.
A friend of mine just scoops powder in until there is no air gap and then seats the bullet on top.
Have fun!
A load that worked well for me was 60 grains of 2F, a card, a grease cookie and then another card. Powder was dispensed using a drop tube. With the grease cookie and cards added, there is no airspace and the powder had to be compressed slightly.
A friend of mine just scoops powder in until there is no air gap and then seats the bullet on top.
Have fun!
I do and it's a hoot to shoot to say the least.
A couple of thing you need to know :
1- You cannot over charge with BP. The max charge is however you can cram in the case while still have space to seat a bullet. DO NOT leave an airspace between the charge and the bullet any more than a 1/16th of an inch. It can lead to problems like ringed chambers.
2- Before you do any loading, you need to determine your max OAL with the bullet you intend to use. An easy way to do this is to take a bullet, push it as far as it'll go in the chamber and then measure the depth from the breech to the bullet rear end with a calliper. This measurment plus the lenght of the bullet will yield your max OAL. Record this number. Now you need to determine where in the case the bullet will sit. If you'll be using a compression die, you need to determine where your final charge will sit in the case. To do this, take a case, substract you previous chamber measurement from the case lenght. Now you have a measurment of where your final charge plus whatever wadding need to be, taken from the case mouth.
3- A BP charge need to be compressed to burn well and produce constant velocity. Now that you have taken time to make a couple of chamber measurment, they will be easy to load up. Take you BP, fill the case until you are about 0.125" over the charge level you calculated earlier. Be sure to lightly tap the case to settle the charge or use a drop tube. This will be you powder charge. Weight it for repeatability and record it. Now you can do 1 of 2 things. Either put a cardboard wad in the case and then seat the bullet on top of it to your measured OAL or use a compression die to compress your charge before you seat the bullet. If you use a soft alloy, you would be better of using the later because it does take some force to compress the charge. If the charge is not compressed before you seat the bullet, the seating dies can deform the bullet. Either way you now have a completed round, Congratulations.
4- the search for accuracy will involve trying different powder weight, staying within the range where the charge is compressed and using different compression level with the same charge weight using thicker or thinner wadding to take up the space. Using Goex FFg, I found 0.150" work best. YMMV.
5- fouling control : BP is a very inefficient powder. It leave gobs of residue. It's no real problem if it stay soft. The lube you use will help you, containing vegetal oil to "wet" the fouling and prevent it from caking. Depending on the bullet design you use, you may have to use a lub cookie : 2 cardboard wads with lube trapped in between or a thick felt wad soaked with lube. If your bullet carry a lot of lube -read deep and wide lube groove- you could do without. You can also swab between shots or use a blow tube. A blow tube is a contraption made from a spent case and a 10-12 inch lenght of big vinyl fuel line tube. You basically breath down the barrel to wet the fouling and keep it soft.
6- spent case care : BP contain lots of sulfur and the fouling left inside the fired case will destroy them if it's not neutralised. When you get home, simply soak them in warm water with dish soap and scrub them with a small plastic brush to remove the big fouling.
7 Firearm care : As with the case, the firearm need to be cleaned ASAP so use the same solvant, water and soap. In the winter it may be hard to keep water from freezing so you can mix some rubbing alcool in the mix.
I have a H&R Buffalo classic and get group well under an inch at 50 Yds using peep sight loading using these process. Just dont expect lightning velocity from the old cartridge but with a 450 grain lee bullet, it's a real thumper.
That's a quick rundown of the process. If you have more question, I'll be more than happy to oblige.
Frank
A couple of thing you need to know :
1- You cannot over charge with BP. The max charge is however you can cram in the case while still have space to seat a bullet. DO NOT leave an airspace between the charge and the bullet any more than a 1/16th of an inch. It can lead to problems like ringed chambers.
2- Before you do any loading, you need to determine your max OAL with the bullet you intend to use. An easy way to do this is to take a bullet, push it as far as it'll go in the chamber and then measure the depth from the breech to the bullet rear end with a calliper. This measurment plus the lenght of the bullet will yield your max OAL. Record this number. Now you need to determine where in the case the bullet will sit. If you'll be using a compression die, you need to determine where your final charge will sit in the case. To do this, take a case, substract you previous chamber measurement from the case lenght. Now you have a measurment of where your final charge plus whatever wadding need to be, taken from the case mouth.
3- A BP charge need to be compressed to burn well and produce constant velocity. Now that you have taken time to make a couple of chamber measurment, they will be easy to load up. Take you BP, fill the case until you are about 0.125" over the charge level you calculated earlier. Be sure to lightly tap the case to settle the charge or use a drop tube. This will be you powder charge. Weight it for repeatability and record it. Now you can do 1 of 2 things. Either put a cardboard wad in the case and then seat the bullet on top of it to your measured OAL or use a compression die to compress your charge before you seat the bullet. If you use a soft alloy, you would be better of using the later because it does take some force to compress the charge. If the charge is not compressed before you seat the bullet, the seating dies can deform the bullet. Either way you now have a completed round, Congratulations.
4- the search for accuracy will involve trying different powder weight, staying within the range where the charge is compressed and using different compression level with the same charge weight using thicker or thinner wadding to take up the space. Using Goex FFg, I found 0.150" work best. YMMV.
5- fouling control : BP is a very inefficient powder. It leave gobs of residue. It's no real problem if it stay soft. The lube you use will help you, containing vegetal oil to "wet" the fouling and prevent it from caking. Depending on the bullet design you use, you may have to use a lub cookie : 2 cardboard wads with lube trapped in between or a thick felt wad soaked with lube. If your bullet carry a lot of lube -read deep and wide lube groove- you could do without. You can also swab between shots or use a blow tube. A blow tube is a contraption made from a spent case and a 10-12 inch lenght of big vinyl fuel line tube. You basically breath down the barrel to wet the fouling and keep it soft.
6- spent case care : BP contain lots of sulfur and the fouling left inside the fired case will destroy them if it's not neutralised. When you get home, simply soak them in warm water with dish soap and scrub them with a small plastic brush to remove the big fouling.
7 Firearm care : As with the case, the firearm need to be cleaned ASAP so use the same solvant, water and soap. In the winter it may be hard to keep water from freezing so you can mix some rubbing alcool in the mix.
I have a H&R Buffalo classic and get group well under an inch at 50 Yds using peep sight loading using these process. Just dont expect lightning velocity from the old cartridge but with a 450 grain lee bullet, it's a real thumper.
That's a quick rundown of the process. If you have more question, I'll be more than happy to oblige.
Frank
"...the cartridge was originally 70 grains..." Only the Trapdoor Rifle load used 70 grains in military ammo. Trapdoor Carbine loads used 55. Shooting a rifle load out of a Trapdoor carbine hurts. Doesn't hurt the Carbine, but it does hurt one's shoulder. The correct lubing of the cast bullet matters too. Otherwise you get nice clear keyholed bullets at 25 yards.
In any case, the load you use will depend on what firearm you have.
In any case, the load you use will depend on what firearm you have.
I have loaded original spec 45-70 loads with 70 grains of black powder over a 500 grain 20:1 lead to tin bullet, you will need a drop tube and a powder compression die to get the 70 grains in the case before you seat the bullet. The thing to remember is that you do not want to have an air space between the powder and bullet, from what I have read many times it can cause a ring in the chamber.
If you want to avoid the greased wad or grease cookie you need a bullet with deep grooves.
My B78 Browning likes the original 405 Grain Winchester bullet with deeep grooves.
Lee has a new 405 grain bullet mould with deep grooves and a hollow base which is going to get a tryout come spring. If the hollow base does not work out there will be an amputation of the base plug from the mould.
I load 62 Grains of FFg Goex with a Juice carton wad under the bullet. Juice carton is a bit thicker than milk carton in our stores. Our club rules do not allow gas checks.
This load has better accuracy potential than this shooter's offhand ability at 100 metres, though it has won a lucky medal in the past.
My B78 Browning likes the original 405 Grain Winchester bullet with deeep grooves.
Lee has a new 405 grain bullet mould with deep grooves and a hollow base which is going to get a tryout come spring. If the hollow base does not work out there will be an amputation of the base plug from the mould.
I load 62 Grains of FFg Goex with a Juice carton wad under the bullet. Juice carton is a bit thicker than milk carton in our stores. Our club rules do not allow gas checks.
This load has better accuracy potential than this shooter's offhand ability at 100 metres, though it has won a lucky medal in the past.
The only problem you'll have is that you'll probably sell your smokeless rifles because you are having so much fun 
. I shoot thousands of round of blackpowder cartridges a year. I only rarely shoot my smokeless rifles these days, no time for that anymore. I've switched to BPCR and early schuetzen rifles
The .45-70 works very well with black powder. Generally you'll get better accuracy than you will with smokeless in that cartridge, most particularly at longer ranges.
To start with, you really don't need to know too much. Start with FFg granulation. Figure out your cartridge oal. Your start load will be whatever charge fills the case up to the base of the bullet. You can compress from there to use more powder if you like. Often accuracy will increase with more powder. ( do not compress the powder with the bullet as you will distort it.
Start with soft bullets, most hard cast bullets are far too hard no you can get gas cutting. In some cases you can get away with hard bullets but they'll want to be oversized. You can make a simple lube from beeswax and olive oil. It's not the greatest, but it's fine to start with. Don't bother with a crimp for your single shots.
The process can get a fair bit more detailed if you decide you really enjoy it and want to maximize accuracy.
Chris.
. I shoot thousands of round of blackpowder cartridges a year. I only rarely shoot my smokeless rifles these days, no time for that anymore. I've switched to BPCR and early schuetzen rifles The .45-70 works very well with black powder. Generally you'll get better accuracy than you will with smokeless in that cartridge, most particularly at longer ranges.
To start with, you really don't need to know too much. Start with FFg granulation. Figure out your cartridge oal. Your start load will be whatever charge fills the case up to the base of the bullet. You can compress from there to use more powder if you like. Often accuracy will increase with more powder. ( do not compress the powder with the bullet as you will distort it.
Start with soft bullets, most hard cast bullets are far too hard no you can get gas cutting. In some cases you can get away with hard bullets but they'll want to be oversized. You can make a simple lube from beeswax and olive oil. It's not the greatest, but it's fine to start with. Don't bother with a crimp for your single shots.
The process can get a fair bit more detailed if you decide you really enjoy it and want to maximize accuracy.
Chris.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
It's easy and a hoot. You already know your way around black powder so you're good to go.
Best bullets for me have been Lyman 457125 which I use for competition in my Rolling Block and 457193 which is my hunting bullet in my 1885.
Best bullets for me have been Lyman 457125 which I use for competition in my Rolling Block and 457193 which is my hunting bullet in my 1885.
This document is probably the best introduction to black powder cartridge shooting. It's a bit dated, but it's an excellent intro to loading and shooting cartridge rifles. If you already shoot muzzleloaders then you are way ahead of the game already.
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf
Chris.
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf
Chris.
