Reloading Course from P&D Enterprises NOT RECOMMENDED!
- Thread starter one shot one kill
- Start date
one shot, I don't think you really have any call to criticize the course, considering it wasn't you taking it. A course like that is definitely going to be geared toward the beginner, and as people have pointed out, it is listed as an acceptable powder in loading manuals... maybe not the best choice, but safe if used with the recommended bullets.
If YOU had taken the course and complained, I might listen, and Phil undoubtedly would too as he strives to give the best service he possibly can to people of all knowledge levels.
If YOU had taken the course and complained, I might listen, and Phil undoubtedly would too as he strives to give the best service he possibly can to people of all knowledge levels.
- Location
- Keoma alberta
imr 4895 is listed in my lyman reloading book for every bullet weight, if he follows the book and not someone who thinks he knows every thing off the top of his head, the kid will do ok. I like imr 4895 for my 308, it meters well. It my not be my first choice for a 7 rem mag.....but it will work
A quote:"One of the weirdest things I've seen is a friend who spent the time crunching numbers until he successfully loaded .308 for his M14 using 200 grain, cast lead bullets and Red Dot powder! To boot, he created a subsonic load so it would be quiet enough to shoot gophers with! LOL
The wildest part is that it was fairly accurate".
This was a common procedure, with various rifles and calibres, by many older reloaders.
The wildest part is that it was fairly accurate".
This was a common procedure, with various rifles and calibres, by many older reloaders.
Before being too hard on the orig. poster, has anyone else from here taken the course? Who is the instructor and what is the cost, what is the stated aim of the course? I wouldn't dwell on the powder selection, 4895 is certainly not an optimum powder for the overbore magnums, but it can be used as can just about any other fast powder. I think both sides of this issue need to get to the facts.
From the Hodgdson website with a 120gr bullet:
Max load of IMR4895 produces 3189 fps
Max load of IMR4350 produces 62 fps more
Max load of H4350 produces 37 fps more
Max load of IMR4831 produces 42 fps more
Max load of R-19 produces about 50 fps more. (QuickLOAD data)
Would you say these powders give "substantially" higher velocity? And yes a max (compressed) charge of R-22 will give about 100 fps more.
Obviously the results will have a wider variation in velocity as the bullet weight increases.
So, from QuickLOAD for a 160gr bullet and max pressure loads:
R-22 gives 3056 fps
IMR4895 gives 2938 fps
Comments anyone?
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I am looking into taking the course and spoke to one of the instructors the other day. The course is 95$ and there are 2 instructors, Ede and (can't remember name).
From what I understand, this course is geared towards beginners; the only pre-req is having a head on your shoulders. The reason I am interested in this course is to get the fundamentals: Understanding the basics, available references, safety, equipment required and how to use it, understanding info provided by manufacturers with reference info like min/max loads and finally putting a round together... enough information for a person to do his/her own research on loads and confidently put a round together safely and effectively.
I will more than likely take this course no matter what is said here, fact is, anyone with half a brain will take this course as a building block to successful reloading, not the end-all be-all.
From the Second Edition Sierra manual
120gr bullet 7mmremmag
Max load of IMR 4350 3400fps
Nosler Reloading Guide #4
120gr bullet 7mmremmag
Max load of R-19 3570fps
Max load of R-22 3562fps
Hornady Handbook third edition
120gr bullet 7mmremmag
Max load h450 3500fps
Max load imr 4831 3400fps
Hodgdons data manual 26th Edition
120gr bullet 7mmremmag
Max load imr7828 3490fps
Max load R-22 3460FPS.
There is data from four of my manuals that show a minimum velocity of 3400fps,and a maximum velocity of 3570fps with 120gr bullets out of the 7mm rem mag using the optimum powders for this combination.That is from 211fps to 381fps more than the 4895 load you have listed.Yes,I would say these powders give "substantially" higher velocity.Wouldn't you?
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Compare apples to apples. Give me figures from that SAME books for 4895 and then compare the differences between the powders. Different books always come up with different velocities. Therefore your velocity comparison figures are almost meaningless. Go back and also post the 4895 velocities for each of your loads otherwise you "comparison" is all a bunch of BS.
The ones I stated were from the SAME source in EACH CASE. I also got different (higher) velocities using QuickLOAD but didn't post them because they didn't compare directly to the velocities posted by Hodgdson. Don't cherry pick statistics and say the compare, that is as bad as an article written by an anti.
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That's what I was thinking as well, talk to any new person into reloading and they almost always get the numbers of IMR powder screwed up. They just havent had a couple of decades or more to burn it into their memory yet.
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Lee Manual 2nd Edition (Published 2003):
7mm Remington magnum
120 grain jacketed bullet
IMR4895
Starting Point: 48.0 grains @ 2867 FPS
Never Exceed: 54.5 grains @ 3115 FPS
Comparison point:
120 Grain jacketed bullet
Reloader22
Starting Point: 66.9 grains @ 3233 FPS
Never Exceed: 73.0 grains @ 3490 FPS
FPS difference is significant but I don't see anything that implies that 4895 is inherently unsafe. It's just a lighter loading, lotta bullets around that diameter get safely pushed out of the barrel with a whole lot less powder and velocity. Manual also gives loadings in 4895 all the way up to 175 grain bullets...
7mm Remington magnum
120 grain jacketed bullet
IMR4895
Starting Point: 48.0 grains @ 2867 FPS
Never Exceed: 54.5 grains @ 3115 FPS
Comparison point:
120 Grain jacketed bullet
Reloader22
Starting Point: 66.9 grains @ 3233 FPS
Never Exceed: 73.0 grains @ 3490 FPS
FPS difference is significant but I don't see anything that implies that 4895 is inherently unsafe. It's just a lighter loading, lotta bullets around that diameter get safely pushed out of the barrel with a whole lot less powder and velocity. Manual also gives loadings in 4895 all the way up to 175 grain bullets...
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No point in spouting off more meaningless load data. I don't use the stuff in any 7mm Mag load, but oh well. Only comment that comes to mind is that I haunt P&D regularly, have purchased a significant amount in $$ worth of stuff there and I really like the store and the people who toil there putting up with I'm sure unimagineable amounts of blatant stupidity from the general public. Somehow I doubt they'd promote anything with anything other than the best of intentions, and as suggested I'd imagine the course is for total beginners. I remember being one.....'nuff said.
OK, that's great, now to complete the comparison, you might also post the max 4895 velocities for the other loads/manuals you previously posted.
My point to this "exercise" is simply to show that mixing and matching powders and data from different sources and saying one is "better" or "best" can mean less in practical terms. There are large variations in how individual loading manuals derive their data. Case volume, lot of powder, barrel lenght, bearing surface of bullet, freebore in barrel, max working pressure all make a difference in velocity.
Notice the Hodgdons data I originally posted only went to 59,000 psi where SAAMI spec for 7mm RM is 62,000 psi. The difference in velocity for the Hodgdon data is JUST as valid as all the data from your other sources. Yet Hodgdon showed less than a 100 fps difference in velcoity for the powders you listed when tested under (presumably) identical conditions.
This is an exercise for beginner loaders to highlight there can be big differences in data depending on the source, and this is not trying to "prove" which powder will push the bullet fastest out of some table in a book.
