Reloading Course from P&D Enterprises NOT RECOMMENDED!

D3V1L6 said:
I am looking into taking the course and spoke to one of the instructors the other day. The course is 95$ and there are 2 instructors, Ede and (can't remember name).

From what I understand, this course is geared towards beginners; the only pre-req is having a head on your shoulders. The reason I am interested in this course is to get the fundamentals: Understanding the basics, available references, safety, equipment required and how to use it, understanding info provided by manufacturers with reference info like min/max loads and finally putting a round together... enough information for a person to do his/her own research on loads and confidently put a round together safely and effectively.

I will more than likely take this course no matter what is said here, fact is, anyone with half a brain will take this course as a building block to successful reloading, not the end-all be-all.
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GSoD said:
He brought a powder listed in a manual.

Sounds like the course worked perfectly for a beginner.

And who knows, he may find the right powder for his particular application and he might not.

Thats why reloading is a journey not a destination.
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I think that many of us "old timers", even though we've been reloading for umpteen years, could benefit from a refresher course like this.
Am sure that Phil and Dianne would never put people at risk by having someone that did not have "their head on their shoulders" and extensive experience.

my .02 cents
 
even within the SAME manual certain loadings are not the same- look at the various manuals in the 45 colt - typically you'll find 2 sections- one for "standard 45 colt" and if you go over typically 2 pages "loads for ruger and contender" that are SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER PRESSURE AND WILL BLOW A STANDARD- moreover, i've got one manual that lists "308 match loads" with 190 grain match slugs-THEY'RE WELL INTO THE 30-06 LOADINGS CHARGE WISE and if you miss the CAVEATS you won't see that THESE ARE COMPRESSED LOADS AND USE A 29 INCH MATCH BARREL- in other words you have to have a "SPECIAL GUN" to achieve these- personally i wish they didn't put such data in b/c it provides incentive for beginners who know nothing about reloading to go for the match or high pressure loads to begin with instead of ACTUALLY READING THE MANUAL AND UNDERSTANDING THE STEPS- most guys look at the pictures, duplicate said steps with their beginners set up and shoot that load- THAT WORKS ABOUT 85 %OF THE TIME AND THE INTRO AND REFERENCE SECTIONS NEVER GET TOUCHED- it's like having a piano and knowing just how to chord- you never get the FULL POTENTIAL of whats in there
 
Posters keep pointing at the optimum powders ( and velocities etc) when suggesting there are better choices. And there are. The 4895's are a stellar choice if you are seeking to reduce velocity significantly. Also reduce recoil which might be a good thing for a beginner who wants a bunch of range time. It seems no one really knows what the new reloader was attempting to achieve. Without that info all else is conjecture starting from post 1.
 
one shot one kill said:
My friends son came over yesterday to use my reloading equipment, he had taken the reloading course offered by P&D Enterprises. I was qwuite supprised at what he didn't know about reloading. He was loading for his 7 Rem Mag and brought with him 4895 powder. The guy who was teaching the course said that would be a good powder to start with. I have been reloading for 20 years and know that powder is too fast and probably dangerous in that caliber. I spent most of saturday re-educating him on reloading procedures. I told him to ask for his money back. I don't know if that is the only instructor they use, but they should get rid of him. :mad:
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First off P&D does not put on this reloading course...The course is put on by Dennis and Ede who work at our store. Both are experienced hunters and reloaders who saw a lack of initial understanding in getting going with reloading from the beginners standpoint. As stated, the course is an introductory course with the very basic information that most new reloaders are looking for but can't get enough info at the store and want personal instruction to get the confidence and support to get going. I spoke to both Dennis and Ede and they assure me that no person was given specific direction in what powder "would be good to start with" as the specific powders for calibre was not part of the course. If you were quite suprised that your friend also didn't know much about reloading and that you had to re-educate him then you are just adding to the knowledge of a new reloader. I wonder if he went to another long time reloader and told him what he remembered what you told him...would he completely agree with everything that you told him? When Dennis and Ede proposed this course I suggested that they stay away from specific load data and procedures and stay with basic information on equipment and making safe, reliable ammunition. This couse has been very well received and this is the first time I have received any negative comments. Also Dennis does not load this calibre and would not have any "pet" loads or specific recommendations. In the end as shown by the response to this thread there are many opinions that were offered with many not agreeing with the original concerns about powder selection. Phil.
 
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Thank you Phil, for 'THE OTHER SIDE'! We knew that you would never do a disservice to anyone, let alone a newbie.

I would like to add.....THANK YOU to Dennis and Ede for helping our sport.
 
In this litigious society I couldn't imagine any beginners course in reloading offering load data. Phil has cleared it up and problably it was just a misunderstanding with a new reloader and alot of numbers flying around.
The litigious thing is so out of control that when I took my last first aid course a co-worker ask the instructor if he would do anything differently with a situation and the intsructor said he couldn't comment because he was teaching us the industrial first aid course:rolleyes:

Reloading is like ###, we all know the destination its just how much fumbling around we do to get there:p
 
sbtennex: Yes it will push them fast. None the less 4895 can be reduced from max load to about the 60% level if desired for most calibers. It is a good powder for cast bullets and is usually where I start when I want a cast bullet going about 2000 fps. It is one powder which a beginner is not likely to dump a double charge in a case because it will overflow or be obviously too full. There is more to reloading than going fast and some powders are quite flexible in use.

If in fact the novice asked such a question we have no idea in what context. He may have said he had a 300 Savage and a 7 Rem Mag. and only wanted to buy one powder for both and what would you suggest? 4895 is only one of a number of options that could be used.

The attack on P & D or it's staff was spurious to say the least. That is one gun shop where the people seem to know their stuff.
 
I would like to take a moment to speak on Dennis's and my behalf as we are the ones who run the reloading course through P&D. First of all, I want to say thank you to Phil for commenting on this thread as he truly did not have to as it was mentioned by Phil other than renting us space, P&D has nothing to do with our courses. However, on that note, Phil and Dianne know us enough to know we would not be teaching anything that would put anyone in harm's way or risk the fine name P&D have created for themselves. Our course was designed completely with the newbie reloader in mind. I cannot tell you how many times while running the front counter at P&D that I have been faced with a customer with little or no direction where reloading is concerned. I have been asked numerous times by customers for powders or primers for a certain load. All of which I have always responded with "What does your manual suggest?". To which I was shockingly surprised to receive the answer, " I don't have a manual." Our purpose of this course is solely to teach the new beginner the importance of the manual, how to read and determine "safe" data loads from the manual and the proper use and description of the suggested reloading equipment. It is a beginner course only, nothing more. Everything in our course outline comes out of reloading manuals. We explain this is the starter block to your reloading experience and each student will have to expand his or her knowledge from that point on through research and trial and error. The bottom line is everyone out there who has any experience with reloading knows that reloading is a very personal experience. What may work well with your firearm and calibre may not be as great with another. Experience, research and practice is where the best rounds come from. We are just providing the starting steps. As far as OSOK friend's son is concerned, we apologize for any miscommunication on our part. Neither Dennis nor myself have any recollection of telling you to use a specific powder as we do not give out that info for liability purposes. We would have told you to refer to your manual; if it is listed there then it should be ok to use. I think it is safe to say that even those with 20 years experience cannot say thwww.canadiangunnutz.com20type of caliber therefore having the knowledge of the "best" powder for every caliber is a little much to be expected. And I am sure there would be much controversy over which is the best in the end. Either way, I apologize to whoever OSOK's friend's son is, as at this point no one has yet contacted us personally on this matter, and wish that in the future if there are any issues with our courses, a simple phone call or drop in would be appreciated to deal with the problem.

I want to add how awesome it is to see the support of so many great people for P&D. I have never met as many great people as I have through the store and appreciate all the positive comments made on our behalf. Thank you.

Ede and Dennis
 
Hmmmm, how come One shot One kill has not commented after they have stared this thread????
Ede and Dennis, keep on going, you can't keep everyone happy, but by reading this thread you seem to have the support of P&D and alot of the readers on this forum.....
 
When I started reloading I went to Catnthehat's place for a brief education. After that I still played quite a bit and made lots of mistakes, thankfully none fatal to me or my guns.

|I would have signed up for the course Phil and Ede described and often think when I retire I might do exactly that sort of thing for walking around money.
 
OK, that's great, now to complete the comparison, you might also post the max 4895 velocities for the other loads/manuals you previously posted.
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To start with my Hodgdons manual,and my Hornady manual do not list loads for the 7mm remmag using either 4895,obviously they didn't think that they were worth listing.The Sierra manual showed a difference of 100fps(but they round to the nearest 100fps),and the Nosler manual a difference of 214fps.Averaging those differences with your difference of 100fps,and the LEE difference of 375fps,we end up with a difference of about 205fps.To me that is substantial,in that is is approximately the velocity difference between the 280rem,and the 7mmremmag both loaded to potential.If you are going to load a 7mmremmag 205fps below it's potential,you are better off to buy a 280rem to reduce recoil,save money on powder,and increase barrel life.
 
What bugs me about this forum the most. Most of the guys on here with posts in the 1000's assume that if you have only 1 post or 2 or 3 that you don't know what you are talking about. 1000's of people in this country who know more than most have probably never heard of this site. I have learned lots from this site. But I still learn more from guys at the clubs that don't even know what CGN is.

Even great people make mistakes. Maybe the instructor mentioned the wrong powder. Maybe the kid couldn't remember. Maybe the instructor and the kid are both crazy.

O.K
 
I think OSOK made a mistake. Basically he jumped the gun. I have learned to collect more information before shooting my mouth off. Enough people read this forum that he could have caused damage to someone's business. I am sure he could be sued if the offended parties choose to. Strangeday would be able to confirm if I am right or wrong on this as I believe he is a lawyer.
 
maka said:
What bugs me about this forum the most. Most of the guys on here with posts in the 1000's assume that if you have only 1 post or 2 or 3 that you don't know what you are talking about. 1000's of people in this country who know more than most have probably never heard of this site. I have learned lots from this site. But I still learn more from guys at the clubs that don't even know what CGN is.

Even great people make mistakes. Maybe the instructor mentioned the wrong powder. Maybe the kid couldn't remember. Maybe the instructor and the kid are both crazy.

O.K
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There are people at gun clubs that don't know what CGN is? BLASPHEMY!!
 
stubblejumper said:
To start with my Hodgdons manual,and my Hornady manual do not list loads for the 7mm remmag using either 4895,obviously they didn't think that they were worth listing.The Sierra manual showed a difference of 100fps(but they round to the nearest 100fps),and the Nosler manual a difference of 214fps.Averaging those differences with your difference of 100fps,and the LEE difference of 375fps,we end up with a difference of about 205fps.To me that is substantial,in that is is approximately the velocity difference between the 280rem,and the 7mmremmag both loaded to potential.If you are going to load a 7mmremmag 205fps below it's potential,you are better off to buy a 280rem to reduce recoil,save money on powder,and increase barrel life.
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I agree with you. 4895 is not the ideal powder for the 7mm RM but it actually works better than many people believe. The online Hodgdons manual does list it within its load tables for direct comparison and the velocity difference is small. (As in my first post). "Averaging" results from different sources also doesn't really work.

What I am trying to do here is present as close to comparable results as possible. There is already WAY too much mis-information and poor information in the world, and handloading is not exception. I may seem to go a bit overboard at times, but my objective is to remove as much questionable information and data as possible, especially so newbies reading this get a true feel for various combinations.

For example, a barrel length that is 2" longer in on set of tests can add 100fps to the results, same if a manufacturer lists his loads to 59,000pdi instead of the SAAMI max of 62,250 psi.


Trying to "prove" that ### is usless and yyyy is gods gift to reloading, without DIRECTLY compatible data just leads to confuse people, and perpetuates folklore and old wives tales. Enough said...
 
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