Reloading first timer with a few questions! Humour me :) 303 british

[Skaal-tel]

Alright! I hope nobody gets too bothered with some silly questions.

I got myself a Lee 4 hole turret press kit. It's not the best! But I'm glad I have it

Identical to this fellah's setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0r8EApfTEQ

I want to reload some .303 and after I get comfortable with the process, some .280 ross cartridges.

I've got the 4 hole press, powder measure disc kit, the lee scale which everyone seems to hate, chamfer tool, pocket reamer and a set of 303 dies. I have about 100 once fired brass, and a couple boxes to keep things separated.

I still need a case length trimmer/gauge. Any preferred types? Does the Lee "drill powered" cutter work alright?

so first question : I would like to use the provided powder measure. Which powder die should I get? Lee #: 90273 universal or the Lee #: 90194 auto-disk powder charging die.. which states that it only deals with up to a maximum case length of 2.015", which is shorter than 303. Or maybe not lee brand at all?

Is there a cheap powder scale you folks would recommend?

I'm going to try 174gr hornady bullets with IMR 4320 powder on my first go round. I intend to target shoot, no hunting. Are there any favourite recipes for accuracy on the forum? Yes, I did search.. that's where I came up with the hornady bullets and imr powder!

The only way I have to add primers is the lee press primer, without the "safety prime" feeder. Hand feed only. Is the safety feed worth the money? Or should I go to a hand primer instead?

Sorry for the barrage of questions but .. better safe than sorry! Thanks for any help.

here's the beasty!

 

[hk33ka1]

I don't think the Lee auto disk or auto disk pro will throw extruded/stick powder as easy as ball powders nor will it throw charges large enough for the .303 cartridge although I'm sure some have made it work. You may find you have to weigh each charge out on the scale or pick up a powder thrower like the Lee Perfect Powder Measure or RCBS Uniflow. When I did load a bunch of .308 on a Lee progressive I set up the Lee Perfect Powder measure with the Universal Charging die. The auto disks used with powder through dies were primarily designed for pistol loading, and can be used for smaller rifle cases like .223 Rem and 7.62x39.

If you have the Lee cutter you need a Lee .303 British case length gauge for it. No one else makes stuff compatable with this. Or you can go and buy a complete lathe type trim system from a different company.
I use the Lee system with a Lee Zip Trim and ball grip cutter and the case length gauge for the calibre I am trimming. A drill will also work fine.

Safety prime is handy if it works on your press. I know it works on the new Classic Turret not sure about the older aluminum model. Hand primer is nice too.

Lees scale is cheap and it works, but almost every other loading scale is nicer to use. I like the RCBS/Ohaus 5-0-5 balance beam scale for a non electric option. Theyre over $100 new but used ones are around for $50-60 sometimes.

 

[antiqueguy]

ive not loaded jacketed bullet much in the .303 but what i can tell you is they like flat based bullet i got mine shooting ok with hornady .311 174gr round nose soft points

i'll also give you this little trick get some orings that fit over the casing tightly near the rim put this on your brass before you fire your brass for the first time to fire form it then neck size it only(a neck sizing die is needed lee makes one) and anneal it every few firings at the neck your brass will last longer if its been fire once without the oring is not going to have a long life no matter wht as most lee enfields have a lose chamber

 

[LUTNIT]

I've tried IMR 4320 in 303B and it didn't work as well in terms of velocity or accuracy as H or IMR 4895. That is now my standard powder for 303B.
The 174gr FMJ .3105" Hornady bullets tumble and keyhole in my no.1 mk.3 and I have seen the same in another guys Enfield at the range (we where both testing the same bullets in the same rifle on the same day... creepy). I go with anything .311" or .312" in the 150-180gr weight range. Reallocated all the 174gr FMJ .3105" to my Mosin.
If you want to play with cast bullets which the 303B handles quite well there is the Lyman 314299 mould for 200gr .314" bullets as well as the Lee TL314-90-SWC that casts .314" 90gr pistol bullets that make great plinking rounds or for small game.

i'll also give you this little trick get some orings that fit over the casing tightly near the rim put this on your brass before you fire your brass for the first time to fire form it then neck size it only(a neck sizing die is needed lee makes one) and anneal it every few firings at the neck your brass will last longer if its been fire once without the oring is not going to have a long life no matter wht as most lee enfields have a lose chamber

+9000

Some guys say it doesn't do anything but I've seen first hand how much of a difference there is in brass life between not using the "o-ring trick" and using it in two different rifles. If the o-ring isn't doing anything then it's causing something else that makes brass life a lot better. Full power loadings with full length resized brass each loading I get case head separations in 2-3 firings. With neck sizing only after initial firing I still get case head separations after 4-6 firings. With the o-ring on the brass for the first 2 firings or so (to make sure it's totally expanded) and only neck sizing I haven't had brass fail yet after 7 firings (all I've managed to get in so far with that batch.)

*edit*
Hmmm... post 357. I wonder if the internet is trying to tell me something

 

[ratrod72]

I find that my NO 4 MK1 likes .311" 180 grain spitzer or other flat base bullets pushed by about 39 grains of IMR 4895. Not too hot for plinking and still capable of taking most game. Do some playing around and find out what YOUR gun likes.

Cheers and happy shooting

 

[dan belisle]

An o ring near the rim will give you excessive headspace, unless I am misunderstanding exactly where the o ring goes. Please clarify. - dan

 

[zuke]

The O ring is rubber and will crush fit forcing the rim against the bolt so there's no excessive headspace

 

[IronCanadian]

I use IMR-4895 with Hornady 174g .312 round nose bullets.

Where and what are you guys picking up to use as O-rings?

Thanks.


Edit: Forgot to mention, I picked up a hand primer instead of priming on my single stage press. I find it easier than having to drag out and setup my press when ever I decide to prime a bunch of brass.

 

[LUTNIT]

An o ring near the rim will give you excessive headspace, unless I am misunderstanding exactly where the o ring goes. Please clarify. - dan

The o-ring trick is for rifles with chambers that already have lots of excess headspace like British surplus rifles. The o-ring takes up the excess headspace and presses the case tight against the bolt face. I find this animation helpful:

Because of the excess headspace the case stretches both forward and backwards. The backwards stretching is what causes the case head separation problems. The o-ring prevents backwards stretching so all stretching is forward. Once fully fire formed (usually takes 2 firings in my experience so I use o-rings for the first 2) the cases can headspace off the shoulder instead of the rim.

Where and what are you guys picking up to use as O-rings?

I use o-rings from The Parts Source. I don't really know the specific size I buy and have used at least 3 different sizes before. So long as it's snug on the body and not overly thick it will work.

 

[Rory McCanuck]

I got myself a Lee 4 hole turret press kit. It's not the best! But I'm glad I have it

Nothing wrong with that press, they've been known to reload a whole bunch of good ammo.

I still need a case length trimmer/gauge. Any preferred types? Does the Lee "drill powered" cutter work alright?

Yes, it works quite well. The Zip Trim is nice, too; it saves your drill's battery power

Is there a cheap powder scale you folks would recommend?

No. The Lee is as accurate as any, just a little more fiddly to use. Do a search, there are a few tricks to make it a bit easier to use. Any of the other beam scales are very good as well, and usually more user friendly, but they cost a good bit more than the Lee.

I'm going to try 174gr hornady bullets with IMR 4320 powder on my first go round. I intend to target shoot, no hunting. Are there any favourite recipes for accuracy on the forum? Yes, I did search.. that's where I came up with the hornady bullets and imr powder!

I hope you are getting your data from a manual, not the interwebz.

The only way I have to add primers is the lee press primer, without the "safety prime" feeder. Hand feed only. Is the safety feed worth the money? Or should I go to a hand primer instead?

The safety prime works well, and is easy to use. The only real problem with it is getting the last two primers to feed. Easy enough to just have a few extra in it, and never run dry. Most folks that have a hand primer swear by them.

Sorry for the barrage of questions but .. better safe than sorry! Thanks for any help.

There is a lot to learn, but it is pretty rewarding.
Stay safe and have fun!

 

[dan belisle]

The o-ring trick is for rifles with chambers that already have lots of excess headspace like British surplus rifles. The o-ring takes up the excess headspace and presses the case tight against the bolt face. I find this animation helpful:

Because of the excess headspace the case stretches both forward and backwards. The backwards stretching is what causes the case head separation problems. The o-ring prevents backwards stretching so all stretching is forward. Once fully fire formed (usually takes 2 firings in my experience so I use o-rings for the first 2) the cases can headspace off the shoulder instead of the rim.


I use o-rings from The Parts Source. I don't really know the specific size I buy and have used at least 3 different sizes before. So long as it's snug on the body and not overly thick it will work.

The headspace will still be excessive when you take the o ring off, though not as bad as previously. I think I would try a different numbers bolt head first if possible , and if that doesn't work, fire form the brass using the same methods as you do with wildcats, size the neck up, then down so that it headspaces on that. Putting foriegn objects in the chamber seems a wee bit Rube Goldberg to me. If it works for you though, have at it. - dan

 

[Skaal-tel]

Thank you all for the replies!

Yes - I have SEVERAL reloading manuals. Do I really want to purchase 8 different kinds of bullets and powders? No, I just want a couple tips to lead me in the right direction, that's all

Most of the reloading manuals devote slightly less than one sentence to 303 british.

Lots of great feedback so far on bullets. I'll try the flat bottom hornadys first

I need to get a couple bits and pieces together but I'm looking forward to cooking some cartridges soon. Thanks

 

[antiqueguy]

The headspace will still be excessive when you take the o ring off, though not as bad as previously. I think I would try a different numbers bolt head first if possible , and if that doesn't work, fire form the brass using the same methods as you do with wildcats, size the neck up, then down so that it headspaces on that. Putting foriegn objects in the chamber seems a wee bit Rube Goldberg to me. If it works for you though, have at it. - dan

this has been done for years i swear by it and so do a heck of alot of people what happens here is the oring keep the case head against the bolt when fire formed they will head space on the shoulder so neck sizing only is done after that fire forming any other way is not going to work it will always case case head seperation above at the web

first i heard of it i was looking at that very pic above there is a few of them to expain how it works http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=24699&page=4

this is only a fix for guns that are not too bad but these are military guns and the cases where not made to be reloaded anyway so headspace was set a bit lose so dirt would not affect the function of the rifle if you can close on a no go gauge then by all means replace the bolt head

 

[bigedp51]

The o-ring is for fireforming your cases, the military .303 British chamber was reamed larger early in WWI to make room for the mud of Flanders fields. The military Enfield chamber is larger than SAAMI civilian standards you can use the o-ring trick or create a false shoulder and fireform your cases that way. The advantage to using to o-ring is when it is compressed it centers the rear of the case in the chamber. (American SAAMI cases run small on rim thickness and base diameter.

The o-ring around the rim forces the case against the bolt face and centers the rear of the case which helps prevent warped banana shaped cases.

After fire forming you neck size only and let the case headspace on the shoulder and NOT the rim. A case forming and trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die to "only" push the shoulder back when the bolt starts getting hard to close.

It is the head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case that shorten your case life and causes all the case stretching in the base web area. When properly fireformed I have gotten over 30 reloads from a .303 British cartridge case.

I fireform my cases using reduced loads using 312 pistol bullets.

NOTE: Use the thinnest o-ring you can find and lube the rear of your locking lugs, if the bolt is hard to close your o-ring is too large and you can damage and gauld your lugs.

Below is a Wilson SAAMI case gauge and the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the .303 British military chamber is compared to a "civilian" chamber. The military chamber is also larger in diameter than SAAMI standards, so the case when fired is stretching in two directions and the cases become over stressed and stretched if not properly fireformed.

On top of that some cases have the shoulder location over a 1/4 inch too short.

Below a properly made surplus military cartridge and its just .002 below the gauge limits as it should be.

At another "noted website" the resident "expert" tell everyone the Enfield chambers are drilled off center. What this so called expert doesn't know is the military chamber is bigger than normal and a "small" SAAMI case can just lay in the bottom of the chamber when fired and become warped and banana shaped.

The case below is actually leaning like the Leaning Tower of Pisa and the chamber is NOT drilled off center.

And yes there are warped and banana shaped cases, it normally happens when one side of the case has a thinner case wall. This causes the case to over expand on one side and warp. (banana shaped case) This is noted at NO.1, 2, and 3 below.

Also number 3 below is why the case above is leaning so badly, the base of the case is no longer 90 degrees to the axis of the bore.

And this is what happens when you fire click....................bang surplus Pakistani .303 ammunition during a Enfield mad minute and open the bolt too soon. The front of the case is sucked into a black hole and the rear of the case blows the magizine into the ground. The shooter wasn't injured by his wife complained loudly when she washed his underwear.

 

[colombe]

Re Reloading 303's
1st thing start off with once fired or new cases.
If the cases have been fired check the inside with a small dental pick or a sharpened paper clip, to find out if it has a bump inside.
If it has it means the the case has stretched or-expanded and is about ready to come apart.
Reloaded 303's are notorious for coming apart.
If you are lucky enough to have one with a tight chamber, you are lucky.
I don't load hot loads for my 303 as I have other rifles that have more power.
I like to use my 303 as a truck gun and when I go for trout fishing in the canoe.
I like the 10 shot clip as bear insurance.
I also really like the 150 grain bullets.
If you neck size only your casings should last longer also.
Just trying to help.

 

[dan belisle]

Interesting, I will have to try that. -dan

 

[lowridersvt]

I use 42gr of 4895 with 174 grains match kings or hornady seems to be the closest load to the military loading and works fine in my no4 and no5.
My n1mk3 likes the flat back bullets and doesnt group well with boat tail bullets . Sluging the barrel is a must for accuracy with a .303 i have 7 of them and the bore ranges from .309 to .314 .
I get about 5 to 7 full power reloads out of most brass but blue box federal i get maybe one or two reloads so stay awat from that . PPU seems to take to reloading the best

 

[bigedp51]

I use something a little better than a bent paper clip to check for thinning in the web area. If the case stretches on the first firing your doing something wrong

At maximum military headspace and American cases with thin rims you can have .016 to .017 head clearance behind the case when fired.

Below a factory Winchester case fired in a Enfield with the headspace set at .067, this case stretched .009 in the web area.

The two best brands of cases are Prvi Partizn and Greek HXP cases, the Prvi cases have a larger base diameter and are .010 thicker than any American brand of cases. The Greek HXP cases are made from a very good grade of brass and I have never heard anyone complaining about headspace who uses them.

Both case below were fired in the same Enfield rifle and this photo gives a good example of cartridge case base diameters.

A .303 British case forming and trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die and it will only touch the shoulder of the case when you bump the shoulder back when you have been neck sizing only.

 

[SKS50]

+1 on Biged post,it's the method I use to fire form my brass.

 

[antiqueguy]

I use something a little better than a bent paper clip to check for thinning in the web area. If the case stretches on the first firing your doing something wrong

At maximum military headspace and American cases with thin rims you can have .016 to .017 head clearance behind the case when fired.

Below a factory Winchester case fired in a Enfield with the headspace set at .067, this case stretched .009 in the web area.

The two best brands of cases are Prvi Partizn and Greek HXP cases, the Prvi cases have a larger base diameter and are .010 thicker than any American brand of cases. The Greek HXP cases are made from a very good grade of brass and I have never heard anyone complaining about headspace who uses them.

Both case below were fired in the same Enfield rifle and this photo gives a good example of cartridge case base diameters.

A .303 British case forming and trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die and it will only touch the shoulder of the case when you bump the shoulder back when you have been neck sizing only.

my experince with greek hxp is not a good one but i'll save that for others to find out i only use prvi the case is very close to that of the mk 7 ball and ive had the same cases for about 2 years now