reloading for a swedish m-1896 mauser?

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kevin9934

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hi

I just got my M-98 1901 carl gustav and i'm ready to start to reload. i have my dies , case and bullet...but i have some question about the action.

I have read a lot about the m-96 action, and many american say that this action is only rated to shoot safely under 45k psi... But i've read that the swedish armorer test proffed those action with 65k psi.
It's not that i want to run hot load inside my 112 yeard old action but i just want to be sure my 1901 action is safe to shoot?
Also they say the steel used in the action is a bit to soft and the action then to expand/stretch with time?

Does my 1901 action will be safe?Do i need to consider a -10% charge from the maximum since she is 112 year old? The receiver look brand new and i don't have any issue with the factory norma/remington and federal so far?

For relaoding i think i will use RL-22 with 140gr sierra game king/berger vld/hornady amax. I think the RL-22 is the best to achieve the fastest velocity for the least amount of pressure.
But i ask myself since the mauser have a 29 inch barrel would i be better to use slow burning powder?

any experienced m-1896 mauser reloader here?

Kevin
 
kevin9934 said:
hi

I just got my M-98 1901 carl gustav and i'm ready to start to reload. i have my dies , case and bullet...but i have some question about the action.

I have read a lot about the m-96 action, and many american say that this action is only rated to shoot safely under 45k psi... But i've read that the swedish armorer test proffed those action with 65k psi.
It's not that i want to run hot load inside my 112 yeard old action but i just want to be sure my 1901 action is safe to shoot?
Also they say the steel used in the action is a bit to soft and the action then to expand/stretch with time?

Does my 1901 action will be safe?Do i need to consider a -10% charge from the maximum since she is 112 year old? The receiver look brand new and i don't have any issue with the factory norma/remington and federal so far?

For relaoding i think i will use RL-22 with 140gr sierra game king/berger vld/hornady amax. I think the RL-22 is the best to achieve the fastest velocity for the least amount of pressure.
But i ask myself since the mauser have a 29 inch barrel would i be better to use slow burning powder?

any experienced m-1896 mauser reloader here?

Kevin
Click to expand...

Some of the new manuals are better. The old manuals all used the M94 Carbine as a test bed. It only had an 18in bbl. The barrel on your rifle should give you 100-150 fps more than those listed in the manual.

Be very careful with those actions. They are very tough and very well made but, they can have some hidden issues that aren't visible to the naked eye.

If I may suggest, start with a mid range load from your manual and increase the load until the accuracy gets good.

Never exceed the maximum load for those rifles and make sure the manual is actually listing for the M94/96/38 actions. I've seen more than one come apart with supposedly safe manual loads.

The powder your suggest is nice and slow, perfect for the 6.5 bore. It is also a ball powder so I would suggest you use magnum primers for consistent ignition.
 
Hey Kevin, welcome to 6.5x55 Swede country. There's some fun shooting coming your way!.

Having put many 1000's of handloads through lots of Swedes over the last 35 years or so, I can say that I've never had a problem with the M94/96/38 action. Prudence is required in all handloading, especially so in an older action without the third safety lug. M96's are strong, but not as safe as M98's are. They don't handle escaping gas particularlly well, it comes down the bolt raceways, past the shroud, and into your face with much more force than a M98 would do. I have blown just one primer in a M96 .... and it was not pleasant. That said, I've never personally experienced bolt set back, action stretch, or any other sign of action stress for that matter. That one primer incident was caused by a bore so badly fouled with cupro-nickle jacket fouling that it was constricted, and it blew the primer first shot with a mild start load of RL22. Had it been a fireformed Lapua case instead of sloppy softer unfired winchester brass, chances are it would have just flattened badly, but not expanded the primer pocket and blown right out. The gun was unharmed and shoots well under MOA to this day.

Your choice of RL22 and 140 Amax should work very well ... that's my go to combo for many years/many guns, this after lots of messing about with pretty much everything I could lay hands on.

RL22 is a wee bit temp sensetive, my summer loads contain .3 grains less powder and a change from winters GM215m's to summer BR2's ... to stay on the accuracy node.

PM if you want my data.

Bearhunter, never thought RL22 was ball powder :p ... sure wish it was though. Think of the time saved trickling !! LoL ;):)
 
Great info thanks you. Yes i have read about the gas escape. Would'nt be possible to take it to a gunsmith to drill a hole to accomodate a better gas escape route?
I think i will chrono some of my surplus 6.5x55 to have an idea of the velocity they used originaly.
It is just me or the troat is really long on those military rifle, but they just look to want to shoot well even with long jump?
Anyone have quickload data for rl22/irm 4831 and n165 for this caliber.
I will p.m you viking.
 
You could open up the gas port in the bolt, I suppose,(although I've never yet seen or heard of this mod actually being done) ... but the biggest deficiency is the lack of a deflecting flange on the bolt shroud. The '94 design does not turn the escaping gas to the side as the '98 shroud does. I've got a flanged '98 style shroud for M96 here, got it from Brownells, it's yet to be installed. I don't feel at risk behind my Swedes with reasonable handloads, so never have got around to fitting it.

A chrono is very good to have!. There is an accuracy node in most Mil. Swede rifles at 2650-2675fps with 140's. That speed happily corresponds with prudent max pressure using slow burners like RL22 or H4831. The surplus ammo I've chrono'd was about that speed.

Yes, the '96's do have long throats!. The Amax, it has a very long shank, ... could be why they work so well?.

I've found that long jumps like very straight, minimum runout bullet seating ... hence, Collet neck sizers and BR seating dies are really beneficial to accuracy.

kevin9934 said:
Great info thanks you. Yes i have read about the gas escape. Would'nt be possible to take it to a gunsmith to drill a hole to accomodate a better gas escape route?
I think i will chrono some of my surplus 6.5x55 to have an idea of the velocity they used originaly.
It is just me or the troat is really long on those military rifle, but they just look to want to shoot well even with long jump?
Anyone have quickload data for rl22/irm 4831 and n165 for this caliber.
I will p.m you viking.
Click to expand...
 
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Thats fine shooting dero!.
I too have seen fine accuracy with the 4350's, both H and IMR. And especially with the 120 grainers ... NBT's being the best of all in most of my rifles. Often sub half MOA if you can believe it!. (tuned and 10x scoped)

However, with the 140's, it is somewhat "sudden" when approaching that magic 2650fps node. Hits the wall. A half grain increase would see the pressures get inconsistent, and with that, accuracy faded just shy of reaching the node ... for me.

RL22 .... its just so easy to get what your after.
 
kevin9934 said:
I will try to find rl-22 localy this week. And I will start reloading when I found a proper manual.
Click to expand...


Something to keep in mind, the original ball was at one time loaded with Bofors #44 powder. It is very close to IMR3031.

It is no longer available but Higginson's used to sell it for $4 per pound, shipped, if you bought 21 or more pounds.
 
My son shoots a 96 that he bought from bearhunter who posted #2 in this thread. It is in amazing condition and probably his favourite bolt rifle.

I do the reloading and use 43.1 grains of H414 and a 120 gr. Hornady AMAX bullet The brass is PRIVI.

It is amazingly accurate with that load and even with my old eyes the long barrel makes for fun shooting for me.
 
i have some question about my manual. i have the berger 1st edition and i,m comparaing it with the Vihtavuori manual version 11.

For the N165
berger list the start load for 140gr at: 42.0 gr for 2344
max load for 140gr at: 46.6 gr for 2606
Lapua Viht list for the 140 gr start load : 46.3 for 2513
Max load: 50 for 2735

For N560
Berger 140gr vld start load : 42.5 for 2425
max load : 47.1 for 2705
Lapua Viht with 140gr hpbt start load: 45.2 for 2556
max load: 48.3 for 2770
Berger use a 24 inch barrel and dont specify the action type.
lapua use a 26.5 inch barrel and does specify the action type.
I specify that the data used here are not the on lapua list as 6.5x55 skan aka moderne load since they specify it's not safe to use in the m-1896 action.
I don't understand why those data have such a difference.

Anyone have a good reloading manual for the relaoder 22 /6.5x55 that specify the action type m-96? And give me the data so i can compare with my berger manual?
Also anyone that have Quickload , could run those data to see what are the pressure value with those powder? I'm really curious about the pressure value with the three powder rl22/n560/n165.
 
The Lyman 49th manual specifically uses an M38 Swede with a 24 inch bbl for their test purposes.

The load range they give for 140 grain bullets with Reloader 22:

Rx22- 44.3 grains = 2275fps - 47.0grains = 2576fps
 
thanks
berger list 43.5 grains= 2544 - 46.4 grains = 2736 at 96% case capacity.
.6 to .8 grains difference and min 269 fps max 160 fps difference. humm

Anyone have other data to compare to this?

i have send an email to Lapua to have some information about they'r data.
 
"...drill a hole to..." That'd drop its value by half. I wouldn't put too much stock in what some American said about any European rifle. They tend to suffer from NIH. They forget that Oswald used a Carcano too.
"...quickload data for..." Better to use the data found on the manufacturer's site. Alliant gives data specifically for Mausers.
 
Kevin9934,

Here are the pressures (Piezo CIP method) that QL shows for the data that you provided:

N165:
46.6 grains; 24" barrel - 47,000 psi
50.0 grains; 26.5" barrel - 59,300 psi - note that this load shows as above max pressure in QL

N560:
47.1 grains; 24" barrel - 47,000 psi
48.3 grains; 26.5" barrel - 51,000 psi

You didn't list a load for RL22 so I couldn't look up the pressures.
QL lists the max pressure for the 6.5x55 Swede as 55,114 psi.
Berger appears to be holding the max pressure for their loads at around 47,000 psi. The velocities listed by Berger and QL are pretty much identical.


kevin9934 said:
i have some question about my manual. i have the berger 1st edition and i,m comparaing it with the Vihtavuori manual version 11.

For the N165
berger list the start load for 140gr at: 42.0 gr for 2344
max load for 140gr at: 46.6 gr for 2606
Lapua Viht list for the 140 gr start load : 46.3 for 2513
Max load: 50 for 2735

For N560
Berger 140gr vld start load : 42.5 for 2425
max load : 47.1 for 2705
Lapua Viht with 140gr hpbt start load: 45.2 for 2556
max load: 48.3 for 2770
Berger use a 24 inch barrel and dont specify the action type.
lapua use a 26.5 inch barrel and does specify the action type.
I specify that the data used here are not the on lapua list as 6.5x55 skan aka moderne load since they specify it's not safe to use in the m-1896 action.
I don't understand why those data have such a difference.

Anyone have a good reloading manual for the relaoder 22 /6.5x55 that specify the action type m-96? And give me the data so i can compare with my berger manual?
Also anyone that have Quickload , could run those data to see what are the pressure value with those powder? I'm really curious about the pressure value with the three powder rl22/n560/n165.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks huntingfamily.
Can you run those data again but for my 29 inch barrel.

For the rl22 I have :
Alliant powder : 40-2461 with cci200(they don't specify if its max or start load)
Berger: 43.5-2544 46.4-2736
Both use 24 inch barrel but I would like to see the data on 29 inch barrel too.
Thank for your time hunterfamily
I'm in contact with lapua to have theyr answer.
 
The max pressure doesn't change with barrel length. This is because the pressure spike occurs at about 2" of bullet travel in the barrel, in this application.

From QL:
RL22 with Berger 140 VLD:
46.4 grains - 46,060 psi

From the online Alliant Reloader's guide:
45.0 grains max with Speer 140 SP bullet (different than what you are using?) - 39,039 psi

For the velocities I would recommend you use a chronograph.
Here is where you can find the QuickLoad program: http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm
I bought it to use mainly with my 7x57 rifles and it has been a big help to me.


kevin9934 said:
Thanks huntingfamily.
Can you run those data again but for my 29 inch barrel.

For the rl22 I have :
Alliant powder : 40-2461 with cci200(they don't specify if its max or start load)
Berger: 43.5-2544 46.4-2736
Both use 24 inch barrel but I would like to see the data on 29 inch barrel too.
Thank for your time hunterfamily
I'm in contact with lapua to have theyr answer.
Click to expand...
 
There has been a reduction in some reloading manual's max. charges for M94/96/38 Swede 6.5x55, over the years.
Hodgdon still suggests somewhat higher max charges than Hornady or Speer does, for example.
I have here older Hodgdon manuals that go as high as 49gr RL22/140gr as max, for 2800++fps from the tested 29" 96 barrel. No way will I ever go that high in my Swede's though. Not prudent, IMO, and well over the best accuracy node speeds in every gun I've ever loaded for. We are into flattened primer, 1/2 thou. expanded case head territory here ... more pressure than even the steamy Norma factory loads(which Norma markets for use in '96's) produce.
Every mil. Swede barrel that I personally have slugged, has measured .264.5-266.5" across the grooves, most are around .265.5"(the tightest, a 1900 Oberndorf, mic'd .264.5", this after the heavy cupro-nickle fouling build-up was(labouriously), removed) ... that is somewhat oversize by N. American standards. The pressures, they will differ according to bore dia..
After recovering from soft snow many undeformed bullets, that were fired for group at 200yds ... it came to my attention that the most accurate loads were at the charge weight that upset a short length of the base of the bullet, and sealed the grooves. This accuracy happened at around 47-48 RL22/ with 140gr match bullets(a 1/2 grain less powder needed for FB hunting slugs like the Horn. SP interlock). Jacket fouling from blow-by also diminished noteably when the bullet had sufficient pressure to obturate into the grooves.

Here, have I stayed, for thousands of trouble-free shots. Mostly, I shoot highly tuned scoped M96's at long range. Most of them fitted with fresh 23.5" M38 barrels from Tradeex.
I do not recommend these loads as safe for use in any rifle. YMMV ... start low and be your own guide.

Perhaps, the Krag's action pressure limits are inhibiting some recent published 6.5x55 data max's?.

To bearhunter. I enjoy your posts ... you know your stuff, shoot straight.
Can you elaborate any specifics of the Swede action failures you mentioned prior?.
It's O/T, I know, but very interesting to a student of Swede. Hope you don't mind OP?.
 
Thanks everyone.
i just had the reply form lapua and they are in the same area than hornady and berger but . I know where to start my reloads and i will experiment with reloader 22 and Vihtn N560.
i will mostly start at 40 grains and work up the load by .5 grain until i see light primer flattening and then back of 1-1.5 grains.
I have alot of CCi BR2 primer left so i will use them anf also i will try some of the Federal 210M.
 
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