Reloading for the Norinco M305

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xgunner

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If you are reloading for this rifle do you have to use the same procedure as you would for 308 Service Rifle.
Powder and loads are different than loading for a hunting rifle. Any thoughts out there?
 
There really should be a sticky about this in the Battle Rifles section, hopefully some real experts will weight in but here's what I've picked up from reading there and on US sites about reloading for M-14 pattern rifles:

- ALWAYS full-length resize with small base dies
- double check your primer seating depth and use the hardest primers you can find
- unless you're gauging the wall thickness after each firing don't reload your brass more than 3 or 4 times maximum - PARTICULARLY on M305's with big sloppy chambers.
- unless you're using a grooved piston, keep your bullet weights below 180gr
- because you must load from the magazine for safety, COAL needs to fit the magazine
- IMR4895 is considered one of the "sweet spot" powders for M-14s and matches the pressure curve the rifle was designed for well, try to stick to powders with similar burn rates
 
... and use hard primers, not soft ones like Federal. CCI #34 (?) and CCI BR2's are hard, there are others.

Primer pockets should be uniformed, to have the primer seated just slightly below flush.

I use what was called a standard load for these: 42gr IMR4895, 2.800 OAL.
 
Pop said:
There really should be a sticky about this in the Battle Rifles section, hopefully some real experts will weight in but here's what I've picked up from reading there and on US sites about reloading for M-14 pattern rifles:

- ALWAYS full-length resize with small base dies
.
- unless you're gauging the wall thickness after each firing don't reload your brass more than 3 or 4 times maximum - PARTICULARLY on M305's with big sloppy chambers.
.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with these two. Full length size, yes, but small base dies are an RCBS gimmick.

I've got cases that have been through my Norinco M14S 15 times. Why throw away good brass?
 
BattleRife said:
I strongly disagree with these two. Full length size, yes, but small base dies are an RCBS gimmick.

I've got cases that have been through my Norinco M14S 15 times. Why throw away good brass?
Click to expand...

Small base dies are not a gimmick, on semi-autos like the M14/M1A the full length resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired size for reliable extraction.

That being said its up to the reloader to measure their cases after firing and after sizing. Resizing dies vary in diameter and headspace length and I have standard full length dies that will reduce the case diameter more than a small base dies. The case "MUST" be small enough in diameter to "spring back" from the chamber walls after firing for reliable extraction.

So again when it comes to resizing dies nothing is written in stone and having the proper measuring tools and gauges is what will extend case life.

Technically a standard .308 die is a small base die because the military 7.62 chamber is .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI chamber.

I buy bulk Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 once fired brass, these cases are sized once with a small base die and thereafter with a standard die. "BUT" remember chambers and dies vary in size so you never know which die you might need. I'm using 7.62 machine gun brass in my .308 Savage bolt action and the cases must be sized at least once with a small base die.

I've been in a running gun battle over machine gun brass and which die should be used. Below ceresco is talking about sizing M1 and M1A rifles in the CMP forum. And someone said to first size the 7.62 case in a 30-06 die to reduce the base diameter and then size the case again in a standard .308 die. It worked but depending on the 30-06 die it could over resize the cases body diameter.

ceresco said:
There are two distinctly separate problems in FL resizing: Headspace (base to shoulder dimension) and case diameter(s). With excessively "long" cases the case will enter and extract relatively easily, but the bolt may not fully rotate to the locked position. Correcting this is a matter of die adjustment, shellholder selection and in unusual situations, modifying one or both. The problem of case diameters is potentially more difficult. Excessive case diameters are usually at or near the web. Attempting to chamber oversize (diameter) cases can result in the case firmly stuck in the chamber, far short of allowing the bolt to rotate fully. If it is a live round, you have a potentially dangerous situation. Repeated attempts to force the cartridge into the chamber just make the situation worse and even more dangerous. Gauging cases is tricky. An appropriate barrel (or chamber section) is an excellent "gauge" for checking diameters. The case should drop in easily and come out with just gravity or a fingernail. This will not determine if headspace problems exist. The drop in headspace gauges have limited value. They do not check diameters and only provide a crude headspace check. A micrometer type such as the RCBS or your rifle's chamber is a better gauge. The OPs problem is most likely with case diameters. Springback is probably less likely than an initial failure to get adequate size reduction or a die that simply doesn't size the case all the way down. Often forcing the case into the die twice during the FL sizing helps. Proper case lube and die adjustment are also factors. I have often mentioned that dies vary.....and they do, year to year, between manufacturers, and even day to day. I have a standard .308win RCBS FL die that sizes smaller than a RCBS SB die for example. Good Shooting. ... using a 30-06 die on 7.62mm brass excessively reduces the .308 case diameters throughout the entire case length while not affecting the web diameter much, if at all. The entire .308 case will be so reduced that it will chamber even if the web is still somewhat large. It will then expand greatly to fit the .308 chamber when fired. It is a solution that will work for the wrong reasons. Any ...one with a digital caliper can can easily confirm this.
Click to expand...
 
xgunner said:
If you are reloading for this rifle do you have to use the same procedure as you would for 308 Service Rifle.
Powder and loads are different than loading for a hunting rifle. Any thoughts out there?
Click to expand...

Use the service rifle data, the powder burn rate and gas port pressure are very important.

“Reloading for the Match M14"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwji4IXFy47SAhWDQCYKHY-mBRQQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m14.ca%2Freloading%2F14_loading.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGyw2kWuKdnwCQq9omIMssze7zcIA&sig2=hOZ1RiegMRfwdGRcholWdQ&bvm=bv.146786187,d.eWE
 
That's why I'm looking for a brass gauge so I can more accuratly size my brass but without knowing your chamber dimension it's useless so that's why I had mine checked.
 
I have a drum of Russian-made steel cases that were accidently made too long. They are 5 thou too long. They work great in my +8 thou Norc chamber. They were almost free.

A good Russian marketing guy could have sold them as "Special brass optimised for the M305".
 
xgunner said:
If you are reloading for this rifle do you have to use the same procedure as you would for 308 Service Rifle.
Powder and loads are different than loading for a hunting rifle. Any thoughts out there?
Click to expand...

Consider loading to 60's era 7.62NATO spec. Varget is NOT your friend... use something faster like H4895, IMR 4064, Benchmark, or IMR8208.

147 to 155gr bullet weight. HP and SP may have feeding issues. FMJ or poly tipped bullets are ideal. Hrn 150gr FMJBT would be where I suggest you start.

CCI primer

Properly sized case... yep, being very vague cause you cannot answer this question until you know the dimensions of the chamber in YOUR rifle. In general, they come with pretty generous chambers so you may need to look at "generous" dies to not oversize the case. Headspace length can also be way longer then a bolt rifle so you custom work your ammo for your gun and your gun alone.

Seat bullet to mag length and proper function. I never bothered to crimp but YMMV.

You shouldn't be loading to bolt action pressures... nato spec is quite mild.

Jerry
 
I think omitting the crimp on a semi auto, especially the M-14 and M1 rifles, is begging for trouble.
I've never small base sized, as I've never needed it and think it overworks the brass.

My loads replicate the tried and true US CMP et al loads with 155gr. FMJ or HPBT match bullets.
 
My Nork M14 is 15thou over 308 min spec, it's the only gun I'm a little leary of pissing around with "how many loadings before case separates on me"... not ready to try that out.
I use to use 1F Federal 308 ($15/100) and just toss em after a firing. Now I use IVI and run it through several times, usually dings and gouges keep them to 4-5 firings before cull. WC735 which is a cheap surplus powder close to H335, mag primers, HRN 150FMJ's at 2600fps are working well for me.
 
beltfed said:
I think omitting the crimp on a semi auto, especially the M-14 and M1 rifles, is begging for trouble.
I've never small base sized, as I've never needed it and think it overworks the brass.

My loads replicate the tried and true US CMP et al loads with 155gr. FMJ or HPBT match bullets.
Click to expand...

I do not crimp my M1 or AR15 ammunition, most dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter. I just polish the expander down .002 to .003 smaller than bullet diameter to increase bullet grip.

I have standard Lee .223 and .308 dies that reduce the case body diameter more than my small base RCBS dies do.
 
Yes. Powder charge needs to stay in a specific peak pressure range for proper function. IMR 4895 is a standard. 168 gr bullet with about 41.5 gr +/- 4895 and BR2 primer should get you close @ 2650 fps. Don't expect a high degree of accuracy. Should consider 2-3" good. Maybe better if you have good rifle parts, components. Full length resize brass and don't expect a lot of life out of them. M305 beats them up but good.
 
Ltbull01 said:
...Full length resize brass and don't expect a lot of life out of them. M305 beats them up but good.
Click to expand...

That's what I used to think too. So I decided to run a batch of my standard M14 loads until the cases started to fail. My standard M14 load is 45gr H4895, IVI small base full length sized cases and 150gr AMAX bullets. I reloaded the same cases and continued to shoot them. The first neck split occurred after the 15th reload. Most cases were fine until the 20th reload when I decided enough was enough and dumped the remaining cases. Full disclosure: My M14 has a very tight chamber and heavy Douglas target barrel.
 
I have some (~ 200) Federal and Winchester brass which have been fired 10x in my M305, at which point I thought they best be reserved for a bolt gun. I started trying to push a few to see when signs of case failure started to occur but after 14 firings with no cracks or observable thinning I decided 4X was overly conservative (at least for my rifle and my load). My standard load uses full-sized brass with a 5 thou shoulder bump and 39.5 gns of 3031 under a 168 grain HP.

I'm not recommending that everyone do this but I'm quite comfortable with my practice after 2,000+ rounds.
 
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