Reloading for webley mk2

[jhnvan]

So I just started reloading for a French 1873 model revolver chambered in 455webley and I'm a bit confused with some of the literature.

I read that a solid crimp is required for these to get good ignition. The bullets I'm using are molded after the original bullet (265gr hollow base round nose 11bh hardness). I'm using brand new starline brass and lee 455 dies.

The bullets have 3 lube grooves and no crimp groove. When I'm loading for maximum oal, the crimp is just on the solid surface of the bullet. Is that ok? Or should I switch to a bullet with an actual crimp groove like the 255gr swc from jet bullet?

I'm looking for a little more info on reloading recipes for this caliber. I only have the info from the info sheet that came with the dies and some obsolete reloading info I could find online.

I'm also wondering, my chamber throats are all around .470, is this excessively large for this caliber?

Cheers!!

Here is a picture of a dummy round I made to test fit and function. It shows where the crimp is on the bullet

 

[bearhunter]

I'm willing to bet that bullet would chamber without any issues if you seat it so that the crimp is on the top lubrication groove.

That's what I do with the same bullet in my Webly No1. A few extra thousandths of OAL won't even be noticed by your pistol.

Just for informational purposes, I don't find the crimp to be necessary with hollow base bullets, but I use black powder for may pistol as that's what it was designed for, just like your pistol

No, I'm not suggesting you use black powder. My pistol just seems to give me better results with it.

 

[jhnvan]

Do you use mk2 cases with your black powder loads or the original mk1 cases?

If I seat the bullet less to match the top lube groove, it's quite a bit longer than the max oal recommended. I know it will fit in my cylinder since my chambers are quite a bit bigger for some reason (.470). How will it effect the pressure and burn rate of the powder though?

 

[bearhunter]

Do you use mk2 cases with your black powder loads or the original mk1 cases?

If I seat the bullet less to match the top lube groove, it's quite a bit longer than the max oal recommended. I know it will fit in my cylinder since my chambers are quite a bit bigger for some reason (.470). How will it effect the pressure and burn rate of the powder though?

I use original long cases mostly, but I also use short cases.

I don't use BP in all of my 455 pistols just a couple of them.

With BP, you don't want any air space in the case. It's a bit different from smokeless and air spaces can cause issues.

Ganderite wrote and article about how air space can effect pressures in another thread.

A lot of old Webly pistols were chambered to accept both the 476 as well as the 455. Some are stamped for both and some aren't

The few thousandths difference you're going to have won't cause any issues IMHO. With shorter cases, just use the second groove as a crimp ring. Exposing the lube won't hurt anything either.

I have bullets that are outside lubed purposely for the cartridges they're intended for. The lube doesn't seem to care one way or the other.

 

[jhnvan]

Hmm... I'll try to have someone have a look at this before I do anything. This revolver was made for 11mm mle originally. I'll be using it with mk2 cases and smokeless powder. I guess I could just load up a few cases with different bullet seating depths and start up with low charges to be safe. Ideally, I want the most velocity I can get without exceeding the max proof pressures while getting the least amount of unburnt powder down the barrel after firing. The fiocchi stuff is super dirty...

 

[jethunter]

Hmm... I'll try to have someone have a look at this before I do anything. This revolver was made for 11mm mle originally. I'll be using it with mk2 cases and smokeless powder. I guess I could just load up a few cases with different bullet seating depths and start up with low charges to be safe. Ideally, I want the most velocity I can get without exceeding the max proof pressures while getting the least amount of unburnt powder down the barrel after firing. The fiocchi stuff is super dirty...

In webley revolvers I use 4.2 gr Unique in the MKII brass with that bullet.

I wonder about the .470" throat, is that original?

The cylinder throat should be about bullet diameter, .451" in the 11mm French. The 11mm French cartridge used a heeled bullet, so there was no throat step in the cylinder because the brass is the same diameter as the bullet. When converting to 455 webley, the 11mm French cylinder would only be reamed deep enough to accept the larger diameter 455 brass and the cylinder throat section should have been left as is at 45 caliber, i think.

 

[jhnvan]

In webley revolvers I use 4.2 gr Unique in the MKII brass with that bullet.

I wonder about the .470" throat, is that original?

The cylinder throat should be about bullet diameter, .451" in the 11mm French. The 11mm French cartridge used a heeled bullet, so there was no throat step in the cylinder because the brass is the same diameter as the bullet. When converting to 455 webley, the 11mm French cylinder would only be reamed deep enough to accept the larger diameter 455 brass and the cylinder throat section should have been left as is at 45 caliber, i think.

Well there is a slight step in there. I can't fit the brass in the throat of the cylinder. but the bullets just slide down it... I have no clue if it's original. I was also told that it was converted to 455 webley but I have a feeling it might have been converted to something else??

How is the unique powder? I'm having a hard time finding some locally here. Also, have you got experience with seating the bullet further out and increasing the OAL on this particular cartridge? Any ill affects?

 

[Ganderite]

Well there is a slight step in there. I can't fit the brass in the throat of the cylinder. but the bullets just slide down it... I have no clue if it's original. I was also told that it was converted to 455 webley but I have a feeling it might have been converted to something else??

How is the unique powder? I'm having a hard time finding some locally here. Also, have you got experience with seating the bullet further out and increasing the OAL on this particular cartridge? Any ill affects?

Seating it long is just a physical dimension issue. Will the round still chamber? If so, seat the bullet out a bit and crimp into the grease groove.

It will reduce pressures a bit, but you will load several powder charges in order to find what works best.

 

[Rick]

The bullets have 3 lube grooves and no crimp groove. When I'm loading for maximum oal, the crimp is just on the solid surface of the bullet. Is that ok? Or should I switch to a bullet with an actual crimp groove like the 255gr swc from jet bullet

My experience is restricted to the family war veterans from both sides of the border: a S&W Triple Lock and the ubiquitous .455 Webley.

When I started reloading for them about 35+ years ago, supplies were limited on some things.

I started by buying the RCBS hollow base mould that replicates the service load. The mould back then was quit spendy, but I justified buying it on the theory that the hollow base skirted bullet would really help the Webley, whose chamber mouths are quite undersized compared to barrel bore/groove diameter. My theory was that the hollow base skirt would obdurate as soon as the bullet crossed the cylinder gap and entered the forcing cone, getting the best possible bullet/barrel fit I could hope for. I use lead from the isotope carriers that the nuclear medicine facility at the regional hospital gets their isotopes in - pretty much pure lead.

With no source of .455 Webley brass at the time, and unwilling to wait for the next time Fiocci or somebody else did a run of .455 Webley factory ammo, I found 300 new .45 Schofield cases. All they needed was turning the rims thinner from the front until they would chamber without the case heads dragging on the revolver's recoil shield. And of course a hell of a lot of trimming down to .455 Webley length.

I started doing that, and realized that the chambers are so long that the cases would easily chamber long before they were turned down to .455 Webley length. So I never did finish trimming them all the way down to .455 Webley length. Just found the maximum length where they would easily chamber in every cylinder of both revolvers, and then called it good. So the loaded rounds don't look remotely like standard Webley ammunition. My justification is that they might either be (a) more accurate in a case that places them within touching distance of the cylinder forcing cone, and (b) the longer case leaves less space in the chamber to be fouled after the bullet leaves the case mouth.

Different loads for each revolver, based on what shoots the best in each, but they share the brass...







On the left, an old standard Webley round, the cast bullet the RCBS mould drops, and on the right my reloads as loaded in the .45 Schofield cases. You can see an obvious crimp on the factory example round. On the reload, there's a taper crimp (although it isn't obvious) that mostly irons out the case mouth flare.

Works for me.

BTW, I used to tumble lube and shoot as cast. Now I powder coat, bake the finish on, and run through a Saeco Lubrisizer to get to proper 455 Webley band diameters after powder coating. No more messy lubes here.

 

[jethunter]

Well there is a slight step in there. I can't fit the brass in the throat of the cylinder. but the bullets just slide down it... I have no clue if it's original. I was also told that it was converted to 455 webley but I have a feeling it might have been converted to something else??

How is the unique powder? I'm having a hard time finding some locally here. Also, have you got experience with seating the bullet further out and increasing the OAL on this particular cartridge? Any ill affects?

Seating the bullet further out lowers pressure, seating deeper raises pressure. So no problem, set it further out and so long as it chambers clean you're good. You can leave a lube groove outside the brass even, the lube will collect crap if you carry it in your pocket but otherwise no issue. Can even crimp into a lube groove if you want.

Unique is all I use in the 455 webley. It can leave residue in light loads but every powder I've used does at these very low pressure levels.

The .470" throat is about .015" larger than the bullet. I don't think that's original. If the hollow base expands to .47 caliber in the throat, and then needs to swage back down to 45 caliber to enter the bore. I haven't seen that before.

 

[jhnvan]

Well I've loaded about 100 rounds with different powder charges and different primers at different seating depths and will see what works and what doesn't with a chronograph. What's the highest velocity for this bullet weight I shouldn't exceed? If I seat the bullet further out, does that mean I can increase the powder charge to attain the velocities I need or should I stay within the powder weight limits of what the loading data in my lee die set instructions mention...

I'm used to load development with modern rifles but have never done it with pistol ammo so thank you for the pointers.

I'm really not certain about how bad things are gonna be with such big chambers.... I'm assuming that with how soft the lead is in these bullets, it should somewhat seal ok...

 

[jethunter]

Well I've loaded about 100 rounds with different powder charges and different primers at different seating depths and will see what works and what doesn't with a chronograph. What's the highest velocity for this bullet weight I shouldn't exceed? If I seat the bullet further out, does that mean I can increase the powder charge to attain the velocities I need or should I stay within the powder weight limits of what the loading data in my lee die set instructions mention...

I'm used to load development with modern rifles but have never done it with pistol ammo so thank you for the pointers.

I'm really not certain about how bad things are gonna be with such big chambers.... I'm assuming that with how soft the lead is in these bullets, it should somewhat seal ok...

Original velocity was in the 700fps range. The .015" gap will affect velocity but I don't know how much.

Shooting a .386" hollow base bullet in a .40 caliber cylinder throat works in 41 Long Colt revolvers. The difference from your setup is that 41 colt bullet doesn't need to swage down .015" as it enters the bore. You might get a leading problem in the forcing cone and maybe lead spray at the cylinder/barrel gap.

Theoretically you can increase powder charge if you increase case capacity. The .015" gap may have the effect of reducing pressure through bleed-off. OTOH swaging a 47 caliber bullet into a 45 caliber barrel might raise pressures. Lots of variables at play.

In modern firearms the brass is usually the weakest link. In 150 year old antiques the gun is the weakest link. You can't "work up a load" in antiques like with a 30-06.

 

[Rick]

What's the highest velocity for this bullet weight I shouldn't exceed?

My opinion only, but if you're trying to see what the safest high velocity is you can get out of an old Webley so you can make holes in paper, then I think you might be approaching it wrong. Holes will look the same no matter how fast the bullet is moving, and the paper will be just as dead no matter the velocity.

These are fixed sight handguns, I stayed well within the load data provided, changing it just to see if changes got POI closer to POA, better grouping, etc. I got some improvements on both counts, none of which looked like it had any link to velocities of the different loads.

I'm really not certain about how bad things are gonna be with such big chambers.... I'm assuming that with how soft the lead is in these bullets, it should somewhat seal ok...

Most Webleys have cylinder throats much smaller than the bore. Those really obsessed with that lap the throats out to be at least as big as cylinder dimensions, if not slightly larger.

I don't know this to be a fact, but I think one reason for the skirted hollow base ball round was that the skirt obdurated to seal the bore when the bullet traveled across the cylinder gap to enter the forcing cone. If so, that would take care of dimensional differences among other things.

 

[Moe]

When I used Unique I used 3.8gr for the heavy pills above 220gr and 4.0 or 4.2gr for the light ones under 220gr. In the end I gave up due to the number of squibs I encountered. Now my load is using Trailboss. I use 3.6 gr for pills above 220gr and 3.8 for the lighter ones. My favorite load right now uses a 185gr hollow base with 3.8gr of Trailboss. I have not got a squib since and it flies at 675fps. Note that my brass is all trimmed shorter than 455MkII to now 450 Adams length but seen no difference in performance. Did this because some of the guns I have are only 450 Adams.

Overall I find Unique to not burn completely and uniformly enough due to the case volume and occasionally squibbed. Trailboss solved these issues for me.

Cheers
Moe

 

[jhnvan]

My opinion only, but if you're trying to see what the safest high velocity is you can get out of an old Webley so you can make holes in paper, then I think you might be approaching it wrong. Holes will look the same no matter how fast the bullet is moving, and the paper will be just as dead no matter the velocity.

These are fixed sight handguns, I stayed well within the load data provided, changing it just to see if changes got POI closer to POA, better grouping, etc. I got some improvements on both counts, none of which looked like it had any link to velocities of the different loads.



Most Webleys have cylinder throats much smaller than the bore. Those really obsessed with that lap the throats out to be at least as big as cylinder dimensions, if not slightly larger.

I don't know this to be a fact, but I think one reason for the skirted hollow base ball round was that the skirt obdurated to seal the bore when the bullet traveled across the cylinder gap to enter the forcing cone. If so, that would take care of dimensional differences among other things.

First of all, I'm loading for a 1873 that has been re chambered. I'm not trying to load for max velocity. I want to know what the max is so I don't exceed it during my load development as I'll be using a chronograph. I don't want to go above safe pressure buti want to be able to load to close to max to make sure I don't skip out on a possible good accurate load.

Thanks for the info Moe. Good to know about the squibs.

 

[jhnvan]

Alright so I went to the range and tested some loads.

I made loads of:
Green dot and federal match large pistol primers with 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6
Red dot and CCI#300 large pistol primers with 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4

I shot 6 of each with a chronograph.

My best consistency for velocity and happened to also be best groups were with:

Green dot 3.4gr loaded to 1.300in
1: 629
2: 644
3: 635
4: 617
5: 621
6: 630
Avg: 629.33
StdDev: 9.69
Spread: 27

Red Dot 3.4gr loaded to 1.300in
1: 622
2: 624
3: 605
4: 636
5: 614
6: 614
Avg: 619.17
StdDev: 10.67
Spread: 31

Red dot powder loads seemed a lot more consistent throughout the charges range. The red dot loads also left the least amount of unburned powder. I'm going to load a few more with red dot loading up to 3.6gr to see if I can get an even better burn and tighten up the groups a little bit for the sake of trying. And I'll be trying the Green dot with CCI#300 primers to see if I can get better results there as well.

Seems like powder loads above 600fps range are working best for this revolver. At 25m, the bullets hit high at about 4 inches and slightly left by about 1 inch. I'm not sure what distance the zero is supposed to be to match the sights. I'll have to figure that out eventually.

One more question, should I be full length sizing my brass after firing it or only de-priming them and case mouth sizing them?