Hi everybody. I'm preparing to gear up to reload 38 S&W for my 1942 dated Enfield No 2 Mk 1** revolver and I appear to of run into a problem. Now I'm new to revolver loading and to cast bullets but after slugging my bore and my cylinder throat I've discovered that I may have some problems. If my understanding is correct 38 S&W is nominally .361-.362 in dia and the cylinder throat should be slightly larger. My example has a .364 dia bore and cylinder throats that run from .360-.361. Now assuming that I require bullets at or .001 above grove diameter it looks like I have a problem. Any advice on how work around this issue would be appreciated.
Reloading problems Enfield No 2 Mk 1
- Thread starter lorne19
- Start date
I load 200 gr .361 diameter SWC that I size to .359 in my enfield no.2 however I haven’t slugged my bore. I can go measure mine this morning and report back to you but I get good accuracy with mine using these projectiles. Lead cast bullets will tend to swell a bit to fill the bore but this can lead to leading problems.
I have an Enfield and a Webley 38S/W. I size my bullets 0.359 and don’t have any problems. Both will hit a 10 inch gong at 50. Never bothered sizing the cylinder or bores. Try shooting it, as already stated lead bullets will expand during firing.
Just slugged mine. Bore measures .360 on the grooves, .355 on the lands, and cylinder throats are .360
Jet bullets ran by jet hunter, a member on here offers .362 sized .38 S&W cast bullets, these could maybe be swagged up? I run bullets .001” under my bore diameter without any issues. Side note the nose of my bullets can be made to swell to .363 when seating in tighter cases.
Jet bullets ran by jet hunter, a member on here offers .362 sized .38 S&W cast bullets, these could maybe be swagged up? I run bullets .001” under my bore diameter without any issues. Side note the nose of my bullets can be made to swell to .363 when seating in tighter cases.
Thank you both for the rapid responses. I've considered that due to my cylinder throat size I may have to go with .359 bullets. I wonder if a HB WC sized at .359 could be the ticket or is the .004-.005 bump up too much. Any suggestions on powder while were on the subject?
Thanks
Thanks
I use 2.4 gn of true blue over a 200 gr SWC. Though I have heard some powders might be better than what I use.
My guess is that the .004 jump won’t harm accuracy much but will cause leading so you’ll have to clean more frequently and more thoroughly.
Personally I would try to get my hands on a small batch (around 50) of .359 projectiles make up some loads and see what happens. with softer lead I am betting they will swell under pressure to fill the bore, 12,000 PSI may be small relative to rifle rounds but is still a ton of pressure and more than enough to deform lead.
My guess is that the .004 jump won’t harm accuracy much but will cause leading so you’ll have to clean more frequently and more thoroughly.
Personally I would try to get my hands on a small batch (around 50) of .359 projectiles make up some loads and see what happens. with softer lead I am betting they will swell under pressure to fill the bore, 12,000 PSI may be small relative to rifle rounds but is still a ton of pressure and more than enough to deform lead.
vagrantviking
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Use a bullet that is a thousandth or 2 over the throat diameter and see how it works. That will prevent blow-by and gas cutting at the start. No point in going bigger than that as the throat determines the size it will be when it hits the rifling. I'd suggest a fairly soft bullet to improve the chances of it bumping up.
You might be surprised how well it works. It seems that many of the old revolvers had these sort of dimensions and shoot just fine. My MkVI Webley is similarly tight in the throat but groups well and doesn't lead.
You might be surprised how well it works. It seems that many of the old revolvers had these sort of dimensions and shoot just fine. My MkVI Webley is similarly tight in the throat but groups well and doesn't lead.
I've worked with some 39/357's with not normal throat and groove dimensions. I've also loaded 38 LC, which is close, but not the same as 38 S&W.
I'm assuming you're after an accurate load for plinking, and not a game or hunting load. A bit hard to get, but still around are Hollow Base wadcutter bullets for the 38 Special. These have been loaded in the 38 LC to shoot in .375" groove guns. They will seal at 375, and at 364 they should be good. I would use Trail Boss as it gives a good "bump" to lead bullets and yet is still low velocity. IOW, good pressure, low velocity.
Alternately any swaged soft lead bullet like the ones Speer makes are good. The Speer 158 LRN # 4648 would have the proper "look" if that's an issue with you.
I don't think any hard cast bullet will shoot without leading. However a coated (Hi-Tek) lead bullet may work. This coating is real forgiving, although your numbers are about as bad as I can see working without leading.
Again, Trail Boss to give the bullet a good "kick" and let it slide down the barrel at a low(ish) velocity.
IMHO, opening up the throats to groove diameter is not something I'd consider, unless you have some custom mold made to drop 365 bullets, OR perhaps a mold for the Makarov. But with a 365(ish) bullet, you may not be able to chamber the ammo.
In conclusion, that 001 over groove, or at throat diameter is a guideline, for normal revolvers where the throats are larger than the groove diameter, AND those diameters are close to each other. If they are not close the "guideline" is for a diameter in the middle. When groove diameter exceeds throat diameter by a substantial amount, I think there are no guidelines. Obviously having a bullet smaller than your throats is not what you want, and will only make leading worse, again IMHO. I'm also assuming you don't want to do any costly smithing, so I'd look into the swaged soft lead HBWC first. Read up on these, they do not like to be loaded hot, the skirts tend to fail.
In 44 Mag I've used a Speer # 4661 SWC swaged bullet with a bevel (concave) base with good success, with Trail Boss. And I tried lots of other powders, not worked as well for this application.
Nitro
I'm assuming you're after an accurate load for plinking, and not a game or hunting load. A bit hard to get, but still around are Hollow Base wadcutter bullets for the 38 Special. These have been loaded in the 38 LC to shoot in .375" groove guns. They will seal at 375, and at 364 they should be good. I would use Trail Boss as it gives a good "bump" to lead bullets and yet is still low velocity. IOW, good pressure, low velocity.
Alternately any swaged soft lead bullet like the ones Speer makes are good. The Speer 158 LRN # 4648 would have the proper "look" if that's an issue with you.
I don't think any hard cast bullet will shoot without leading. However a coated (Hi-Tek) lead bullet may work. This coating is real forgiving, although your numbers are about as bad as I can see working without leading.
Again, Trail Boss to give the bullet a good "kick" and let it slide down the barrel at a low(ish) velocity.
IMHO, opening up the throats to groove diameter is not something I'd consider, unless you have some custom mold made to drop 365 bullets, OR perhaps a mold for the Makarov. But with a 365(ish) bullet, you may not be able to chamber the ammo.
In conclusion, that 001 over groove, or at throat diameter is a guideline, for normal revolvers where the throats are larger than the groove diameter, AND those diameters are close to each other. If they are not close the "guideline" is for a diameter in the middle. When groove diameter exceeds throat diameter by a substantial amount, I think there are no guidelines. Obviously having a bullet smaller than your throats is not what you want, and will only make leading worse, again IMHO. I'm also assuming you don't want to do any costly smithing, so I'd look into the swaged soft lead HBWC first. Read up on these, they do not like to be loaded hot, the skirts tend to fail.
In 44 Mag I've used a Speer # 4661 SWC swaged bullet with a bevel (concave) base with good success, with Trail Boss. And I tried lots of other powders, not worked as well for this application.
Nitro
I don't have a lot of experience with the Enfield but have run into this problem with many Webley 455 service revolvers. Some of them have throats in the ..449" range and bores in the .452" to .454" range. Makes you wonder what were they thinking about?
In the 455 Webley with small throats I've found that a very soft bullet sized large as can chamber shot the best. Flat based bullets have as good or better accuracy than the traditional webley 455 HB bullet IF they are quite soft. Harder bullets didn't work as well.
The reasons for soft lead oversize bullets working better (I think) are:
1. the larger bullets centralize better in the chamber and hit the throat and bore better centralized than skinnier bullets
2. the oversize soft lead bullet is reduced in diameter by several thousandths going through the throat and the swaging action results in a short skirt trailing the outside edge of the bullet base, so that when the bullet enters the bore this skirt acts like a hollow base and expands to seal the bore.
With cast bullets you want the largest bullet you can to stop the leading problems. The cause of leading in the barrel is by having a too-small bullet that allows the hot gas behind it to pass by. This hot burning gas jets past the bullet, melts lead and causes leading. A larger bullet is tighter in the bore and seals it better so that there is no jet cutting. This is the reason that cast bullets work better sized larger than the bore. Soft cast bullets can expand easier in these low pressure, tight throated old guns and will seal the bore better. Jacketed bullets are a different beast and not really subject to this gas cutting like cast bullets except for extreme circumstances not found in these low pressure old guns.
So my recommendation would be either a soft cast bullet in the .362- .363" range or a soft/thin jacketed bullet in the 359"-.360" area. The better accuracy will probably come from the soft cast bullet but these aren't target pistols to start with.
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Thanks everyone for the responses. Seems there are two trains of thought. One is to use a HBWC .001 under throat dia and allow it to expand to bore dia and another is two load a solid base bullet .001-.002 (assuming it will chamber) over throat dia. Looking to another project I have a Webley Mk VI with cylinder throats that range from .450-.452 and a bore at .452, perhaps another head scratchier. Jet Hunter, I note you offer soft cast 200g RN (solid base I assume) bullets at .362 has well has a HBWC at .358 or .359. Witch one would you suggest given my issue or should I try both and experiment. Also any more thoughts on powder? I currently have Trail Boss, Win 231 and Red dot on hand but another new powder wouldn't be out of the question.
My best 455 webley loadings used 265gr RNHB and the 250gr Keith swc, cast soft and sized .454". Best powder was warmer loads of Unique.
In the enfield, the 200gr .362" cast soft was good. The 150gr .362" worked well but didn't shoot close to POA. I've used Bullseye but W231 or Trailboss would be good too.
In the enfield, the 200gr .362" cast soft was good. The 150gr .362" worked well but didn't shoot close to POA. I've used Bullseye but W231 or Trailboss would be good too.
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I need to throw off an email to Jet Bullets but I'm thinking I'll try Jet Hunter's suggestion and go has close to bore dia has possible and see if they'll chamber. If that's a no go I'll size them down to fit my cylinder throat witch will likely be .359-.360. I may also try just for the sake of experimenting the 150g RNHB .359 bullet they offer and see if the hollow base can accommodate the oversize bore. The next challenge will be finding data and dealing with my limited selection of powder. Red Dot, Win 231 and Trail Boss.
Thank you everyone for the tips.
Thank you everyone for the tips.
I would use the largest bullet that will chamber and see how it does. I would really consider reaming out the Chambers to .001 over groove size but you can still get good results with what you have. Want to hear something really interesting? My .41 long colt revolver has cylinders that measure out .410 bored straight through. Groove diameter .406. original bullet was a heel base bullet with a .386 heel and a .406 bearing surface. In later years they did away with the heel base and went with a hollow base .386 bullet. With soft lead,black powder and a hollow base big enough to park your truck in, the bullet would bump up from .386 to .406 and pick up rifling. That bullet is bumping up .024! I would not sweat over .002 in your case.
