Reloading Questions - neck turning and mandrels

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JNA

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Hello All,

With COVID I have started reloading more and have finally gotten out to the range recently to try some of my loads.

I am currently shooting 6.5 creedmoor and had set up a couple of loads towards the higher side of the Hornady manual using Hodgdon H4350.

I had full length sized the once fired cases (Hornady) with the expander still installed.

I trimmed to minimum length, deburred and primed with large primer FGMM.

For the powder I was using H4350 coming from a Chargemaster and I checked the load three times for each round.

I seated the bullets with Forster seating die, slightly under max COAL with 140 grain Hornady ELDs.

With some of these loads on my labradar I was getting:

Average velocity: 2765 fps extreme spread 31 and standard deviation 14.1

Second set, velocity: 2728 fps extreme spread 41 and standard deviation 12.8

The group's shot well at 100yards from my rifle Cadex Sheepdog with 26" unisig barrel, but I am not sure how to bring those numbers down..

I have been looking online and saw expander mandrel as well as neck turning mandrels or neck turning tools were a good way to decrease SD and deviation, but was not sure which way to proceed.

Should I go with the expander and neck turning mandrels from Sinclair with a Redding type S bushing die?

Or is there something else/ different I should use. I have some other tools such as collet dies and body dies, but wanted to check what others were doing.
 
I have been using a 21st Century neck turn lathe for years now.
I had never experimented how much it reduced by ES and SD for velocity in my 223 Rem and 308 Win.
While I do it religiously for F Class reloads, neck turning probably doesn't solve too much of the ES/SD problems.

However, I know for damn certain in my 308 loads, that my switch from Chargemaster 1500 to a FX120-i with an Autotrickler V3 had reduced by ES from the 30 FPS neighborhood to about the 10 (or better) FPS.

My 2 cents...If you spend money to make the problem go away, get a FX120-i
 
You asked specifically about neck turning to affect your SD, etc. May want to read some of the other threads on here about your assumption regarding COAL and what your manual might list as a "maximum". They did not have your rifle - their recommendation may not mean much, for your set-up...

Don't forget that normally you are looking for tightest groups (I think) - a small SD number might give some bragging rights, but many, many posters on here have experienced tighter groups in loads with larger SD numbers - "shouldn't be", but gotta tell them that... You mention about 100 yard groups - may want to get out to 300 or 600 yard stuff to see a benefit of "smaller SD" - we can not know what is needed in your rig.
 
Last edited:
Munkey1973 said:
I have been using a 21st Century neck turn lathe for years now.
I had never experimented how much it reduced by ES and SD for velocity in my 223 Rem and 308 Win.
While I do it religiously for F Class reloads, neck turning probably doesn't solve too much of the ES/SD problems.

However, I know for damn certain in my 308 loads, that my switch from Chargemaster 1500 to a FX120-i with an Autotrickler V3 had reduced by ES from the 30 FPS neighborhood to about the 10 (or better) FPS.

My 2 cents...If you spend money to make the problem go away, get a FX120-i
Click to expand...

Sadly the scale is a bit too much for my budget, but I have bought a manual trickler from Frankford arsenal to assist in a bit more fine tuning.
 
Potashminer said:
You asked specifically about neck turning to affect your SD, etc. May want to read some of the other threads on here about your assumption regarding COAL and what your manual might list as a "maximum". They did not have your rifle - their recommendation may not mean much, for your set-up...

Don't forget that normally you are looking for tightest groups (I think) - a small SD number might give some bragging rights, but many, many posters on here have experienced tighter groups in loads with larger SD numbers - "shouldn't be", but gotta tell them that... You mention about 100 yard groups - may want to get out to 300 or 600 yard stuff to see a benefit of "smaller SD" - we can not know what is needed in your rig.
Click to expand...

I bought the Hornady COAL gauge and tried it, but kept getting different readings, will need to try again.

Sadly furthest range I have access to in GTA area is 300 yards.
 
Curious... are you using a timer in between shots ?

In my early days of reloading I never bothered to shoot at consistent intervals and found that my velocities would generally creep upwards half way through the string (of say 10 or 15 shots).... climb by quite a bit sometimes.

At the start of every season I will check my throat wear and gently re-tweek my 308 loads at 300 meters.
Shoot off 5 to 10 rounds about 30 seconds apart to warm up my barrel. (re-confirm my existing loads)
I will not count these in my string stats as they are just to bring the barrel up to temp.
Give the barrel about a 3 minute rest. Then I do a 15 round string at about 1.5 minutes in between shots .... and record the results of that 15 round string only.

I do it this way as it mimics the start of an F Class event (where they get a "blow off" period at the start of the day to foul a clean gun, warm up the barrel, and make scope adjustments).

If you don't already do so, you might consider budget friendly tweeks to your loads such as primer pocket uniforming (21st Century has one of the best a about $90)... flash hole deburring (again 21st Century make tip top caliber specific ones for about $70). Might lower your ES SD a bit more with sorting bullets by bearing surface length.

Also, by sorting your brass by weight (after the cleaning, resize, pocket & flash hole uniforming, and trimming).

If I had to make an educated guess, you could spend a $250 - $300 on neck turning device and you might reduce your ES by 5 FPS.
You might spend $150 on pocket uniforming and flash hole tools, and achieve the same outcome.

The Fx120-i is no doubt and expense scale... I sold my chargemaster (and bunch of other redundant things) while the scale was still in preorder.... but I have zero regrets. It will be a long time (if at all) until someone invents a system that can outperform it. It can detect ONE kernal of varget after all -it would be very hard to improve past that level of accuracy.
 
Most of my experience is effectively about the need of one, good, cold bore shot - deer hunting, for example. A bad situation getting worse if I am starting to see heat effects from rapid fire shooting, although most definitely has happened!! Informative for me read about the F-class shooting - sounds like an entirely different "game" and demonstrates the different demands on shooter and gear, than I have experienced. Good post!
 
Seating depth shorter or longer may help in your rifle, primers also can have an effect on sd different brand or magnum or match each gun is different, max loads are not usually the most accurate. As already mentioned low sd really shows at longer ranges. As far as neck turning I’m not much help, don’t do it, usually get as accurate as I need by component/powder/seating depth experiment.
 
Munkey1973 said:
Curious... are you using a timer in between shots ?

In my early days of reloading I never bothered to shoot at consistent intervals and found that my velocities would generally creep upwards half way through the string (of say 10 or 15 shots).... climb by quite a bit sometimes.

At the start of every season I will check my throat wear and gently re-tweek my 308 loads at 300 meters.
Shoot off 5 to 10 rounds about 30 seconds apart to warm up my barrel. (re-confirm my existing loads)
I will not count these in my string stats as they are just to bring the barrel up to temp.
Give the barrel about a 3 minute rest. Then I do a 15 round string at about 1.5 minutes in between shots .... and record the results of that 15 round string only.

I do it this way as it mimics the start of an F Class event (where they get a "blow off" period at the start of the day to foul a clean gun, warm up the barrel, and make scope adjustments).

If you don't already do so, you might consider budget friendly tweeks to your loads such as primer pocket uniforming (21st Century has one of the best a about $90)... flash hole deburring (again 21st Century make tip top caliber specific ones for about $70). Might lower your ES SD a bit more with sorting bullets by bearing surface length.

Also, by sorting your brass by weight (after the cleaning, resize, pocket & flash hole uniforming, and trimming).

If I had to make an educated guess, you could spend a $250 - $300 on neck turning device and you might reduce your ES by 5 FPS.
You might spend $150 on pocket uniforming and flash hole tools, and achieve the same outcome.

The Fx120-i is no doubt and expense scale... I sold my chargemaster (and bunch of other redundant things) while the scale was still in preorder.... but I have zero regrets. It will be a long time (if at all) until someone invents a system that can outperform it. It can detect ONE kernal of varget after all -it would be very hard to improve past that level of accuracy.
Click to expand...

Did not take too long between shots, but was doing 5 round groups and then waiting about 5 minutes before the next group.

I do not currently uniform primer pockets and currently only sort by manufacturer (using Hornady and Federal) also just bought some Lapua.

Guess I might need to start saving for the scale or see if someone is selling one.

Thanks for the response
 
Standardvel said:
Seating depth shorter or longer may help in your rifle, primers also can have an effect on sd different brand or magnum or match each gun is different, max loads are not usually the most accurate. As already mentioned low sd really shows at longer ranges. As far as neck turning I’m not much help, don’t do it, usually get as accurate as I need by component/powder/seating depth experiment.
Click to expand...

I did grab some other FGMM for small rifle as the Lapua ones are small rifle primers.
 
<15 ft/s Extreme Spread (ES) is achievable as are single digit ES's.

Tools used are Labradar, FX120i, Quickload software (QL), Forester seating dies, Redding body dies, Lee collet die, and Lee factory crimp die.

My rifles have no turn neck dimensions but I do skim turn them so they are all the same.

Anneal brass before any mechanical functions (brass prep) do this every cycle.

Weigh sort case into 2 or 3 groups out of 100, usually get 2 groups with 2-5 outliers that are sorted out, this is with Lapua Brass.

Powder charges are weighed to 0.00 gns to +0.02 gns, so a charge weight would look like this 41.38 gns.

Across the the Labradar record every velocity, sort out any outliers. Usually there are a few.

The Lee collet die really helps with concentricity of assembled round. If you do have runout on the assembled round ,find out where in the process it occurs, then correct)

The Lee factory crimp die does reduce ES up to 25%, especially in smaller cases.

Leave the carbon in the neck (just give the inside of the neck a quick in out with a nylon bore brush), smoothes out the rough brass and acts like a lubricant.

The QL software depends on accurate weights, velocities, measures and knowledge of how to operate the program.

I tend to use a primer with just enough brisence to do the job, a Federal 210M is what I use in anything that takes a Large Rifle primer, up to and including lighting off 80gns of H 1000 at -15c.

To refine it even a bit further is how you 'hold' the rifle, relates to bench technique, with the LabRadar I can see ES creep up if I am sloppy at the bench, not big but a consideration.

Another thing the software will do is direct you to a powder and charge weight that has the powders deterrent chemicals consumed at Peak pressure, this really helps with better ES's.


As far as scales go, I've used a Gempro 250 for several years before the FX120i was purchased. The 250 is accurate but not nearly as user friendly as the 120.
 
Neck turning was done in the past to develop consistent neck tension.
Today same can be done with Redding bushing dies. I've found the full length bush die the best.
As for the expensive scale not needed either, you can weigh powder with a good balance scale to the very last kernel of 4350.
Focus on group size at 200 or 300mtrs. If it's for target purposes go to the Berger bullets.
 
BCBRAD said:
The Lee factory crimp die does reduce ES up to 25%, especially in smaller cases.
Click to expand...

Say whaaaaaa ?


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Concerning the FX120I scale...not sure if this well known or not, but here goes...if you look on the Cambridge Environmental website, it lists this scale for $1072.00...but if you call them, they will quote you a price of $465.00 us. I ordered one last Tuesday, recieved it on Friday. ..with taxes and shipping to Nova Scotia it came to $786.00 cdn. Awesome scale!!.Just waiting on Adam MacDonald's Auto Trickler to show up.
 
beaverbank said:
Concerning the FX120I scale...not sure if this well known or not, but here goes...if you look on the Cambridge Environmental website, it lists this scale for $1072.00...but if you call them, they will quote you a price of $465.00 us. I ordered one last Tuesday, recieved it on Friday. ..with taxes and shipping to Nova Scotia it came to $786.00 cdn. Awesome scale!!.Just waiting on Adam MacDonald's Auto Trickler to show up.
Click to expand...

I bought the FX120 scale and the Auto V3 from Cambridge at the same time last March.
It was $1,458 CAD ($1,008 USD at that time) delivered to my door.
So Cambridge's package price probably went up $64 USD (=$1,072-$1,008)..... but buying separately you're having to pay shipping twice.
Either way they probably roughly the same (ish)
 
I'll echo the comments above.

Your best path towards small SD/ES is by using quality components (projectiles, brass, powder, primers) as well as powder dispensing equipment. I'll agree that the autotrickler with FX-120i is a really good cost/benefit powder thrower if it's within your budget.

When I first started reloading, I also started with 6.5 Creedmoor and was using Hornady brass. I had a pretty big decrease in SD/ES when I swapped to Lapua, I believe my ES/SD automatically dropped in half. Quality components matter, for me that's Lapua brass and Berger bullets. Primers can also have a difference on ES/SD, but I've never had a reason to test primers with the results I see from CCI's.

Neck turning has a very low performance/time benefit. Unless you have a tight neck chamber (which you most likely don't with a 6.5 Creedmoor), there's very little (arguably zero) real world benefit to turning necks.
 
Try a different powder too - my 6.5 cm benchmark HB 1-8t barrel would not shoot the 6 bullets I had with h4350. Switch to R16 and groups cut in half or more. VVn550 is also a good one.
I second the brass prep too - make sure they're clean, all the same length, and cared for exactly the same.
Don't mix anything.
 
I have had plenty of groups touching or in one hole at 100 yards and the labradar numbers are all over the place low SD has little to do with accuracy. IMHO
 
BCBRAD said:
<15 ft/s Extreme Spread (ES) is achievable as are single digit ES's.

Tools used are Labradar, FX120i, Quickload software (QL), Forester seating dies, Redding body dies, Lee collet die, and Lee factory crimp die.

My rifles have no turn neck dimensions but I do skim turn them so they are all the same.

Anneal brass before any mechanical functions (brass prep) do this every cycle.

Weigh sort case into 2 or 3 groups out of 100, usually get 2 groups with 2-5 outliers that are sorted out, this is with Lapua Brass.

Powder charges are weighed to 0.00 gns to +0.02 gns, so a charge weight would look like this 41.38 gns.

Across the the Labradar record every velocity, sort out any outliers. Usually there are a few.

The Lee collet die really helps with concentricity of assembled round. If you do have runout on the assembled round ,find out where in the process it occurs, then correct)

The Lee factory crimp die does reduce ES up to 25%, especially in smaller cases.

Leave the carbon in the neck (just give the inside of the neck a quick in out with a nylon bore brush), smoothes out the rough brass and acts like a lubricant.

The QL software depends on accurate weights, velocities, measures and knowledge of how to operate the program.

I tend to use a primer with just enough brisence to do the job, a Federal 210M is what I use in anything that takes a Large Rifle primer, up to and including lighting off 80gns of H 1000 at -15c.

To refine it even a bit further is how you 'hold' the rifle, relates to bench technique, with the LabRadar I can see ES creep up if I am sloppy at the bench, not big but a consideration.

Another thing the software will do is direct you to a powder and charge weight that has the powders deterrent chemicals consumed at Peak pressure, this really helps with better ES's.


As far as scales go, I've used a Gempro 250 for several years before the FX120i was purchased. The 250 is accurate but not nearly as user friendly as the 120.
Click to expand...

Never thought or heard of the crimp die, but might be something worth looking into.
 
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