Reloading the 45-120

wolf300H&H

wolf300H&H

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hey yall, wolf here ..lol ..... hey good news my uncle just bought a quigleys pedersoli rifle in 45-120 , and ill be making the rounds ...but dont anything about this cartridge ....was hoping you good ole gunnuts could help me out again in this regard .....

Load data chiefly ..... where to buy stuff as well...gonna call lyman come monday for the dies and trimmer pilot (think i use a lyman trimmer for my 50 bmg ,so just need the pilot ...i think)
brass..... local alberta would be cool ...but i guess theres a place called rusty wood trading company in BC for that .... primers i guess are gonna be large magnum ...... gonna stick with smokeless casue thats all i know ...and dont really wanna dabble with the black magic .......anyone know where 500 gr 45 cal bullets are as well ???

hey another question ... since its a falling breech/block -single shot rifle ,will i have to crimp at all .... or is that a mandatory for all straight walled casings .... i do load for handguns and a 357 mag rifle so i do crimp those ...but there repeaters ...anyhow ...anybody with any experience with this cartridge ???

more questions ...anyone know the pressure rating for the pedersoli rifle im talking about and another....can you substitute 45-70/45-110 rounds in this beast of a gun as well ??

thanks alot for reading
 
I have owned a Shiloh Sharps in 45-120 for over a couple decades and have never considered using smokeless powder.
In my opinion you should be very, very careful if using smokeless simply because the 45-120 case has huge capacity so probably a filler would be a good idea over whatever charge of smokeless is recommended..... if any.
No crimp is required if using cast boolits over Black Powder which would be the preferred choice.
And in my opinion Do Not substitute 45-70 loads as they might be much too hot for the action to handle, 45-110 will work providing its a BP load and not a hot smokeless load.
Remember these are not considered to be an overly strong action unlike the Winchester / Browning Hi-Wall.

Best of luck with your rifle, the 45-120 can be an amazing cartridge when loaded like its meant to be..
 
darn i was worried youd say that kevan from what i read on the net last night about its case capacity ......i asked my uncle if he could change the calibre to a 45-90 last night for this very reason .....nope ....so i have a bunch more questions now ....like wtf do i do with black powder .... is it safer /less blower upper than smokeless ...cant remember the differences about them anymore

ummm can i use normal jacketed bullets with the black ? isnt black powder extremely dirty and have to clean every 10-20 shots , or the rifle will be damaged from the residues left behind like corrosive ammo ..... what kind of black powder .... theres not the selection as smokeless right but still gotta be careful ...like ffg or fffg or something i think right

basically im a newb again ...hmmm ...might be fun .... do you know where to get the 500 gr projectiles i should get then kevan ??thanks so much ...expect alot of PMs now ...hehe
 
oh another question allready ....is cast bullets just lead bullets that i can buy from a store ...... and gotta keep the velocity down for the leading thing ...like my cowboy loads in my 38 special wheel gun ??? i dont have the time to start making my own bullets with the whole smeltering thing

and would trail boss not be a good smokeless powder substitute

do you have a reloading manuel or papers or such for this round perhaps kevan ...i could borrow ?

thanks
 
You are asking for a book reply, as it appears you have too many questions and not even a start point on this rifle, cartridge, black powder and lead bullets! Sorry but it is bit like buying a formula 1 race car after owning only a ford focus, and then asking everyone how to make it work.
In my experience, this is a black powder only cartridge, as already mentioned. The black powder load should be slightly compressed when you seat the bullet (about a 1/4 max).
You should be using cast lead bullets. Lee makes some inexpensive moulds to try designs, or you can buy some from Bullet Barn.
You cannot reduce the amount of blackpowder without having some wads to fill the space and keep the powder compressed. You don't need a crimp, just enough to take the case mouth belling away.
Black powder is not corrosive, unless you leave in the barrel for days in damp climate. The number or shots you can take before cleaning depends on too many factors to list here (I am not writing a book for you). But, cleaning up is really easy, usually 3 or 4 wet patches with Blackpowder solvent, a couple to dry the barrel and then an oily one to finish off. Faster than getting copper fouling out.
Get a good slip on recoil pad before you shoot (PAST works for me).
Good luck.
 
I really recommend picking up some books on black powder cartridge reloading. There is some good info in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading manual and a little information in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. If you're looking at casting I really recommend the second one as it has some great how-to articles as well as a lot of smokeless load data including some for the 45-120 (but specifically says it's for modern rifles designed for smokeless powder only - I don't know much about Pedersoli's so can't say either way for that one).
There are also several good books by Mike Venturino, well known BPCR shooter and writer, if you want to go with black powder.

The Bullet Barn has Norma brass listed as in stock but it's nearly $90 for 25 cases. It isn't a cheap cartridge to shoot.

Personally, I'd only do black powder for something like that but I'm already loading black powder 45-70 so would just need the dies. The capacity of the 45-120 with low pressure limits makes it kind of pointless to use with smokeless powder. A full case of anything will turn it into a pipe bomb so you're always going to have a lot of wasted space. Maybe sell/trade it for a Sharps rifle in 45-70 that is a little more conventional?
 
Bullet Barn and Oma Products both sell heavy weight 45 bullets for your cartridge. Your best bet is to use Black powder or an equivalent substitute like Pyrodex. Start with 50 grains of powder, an over powder wad, 60-70 grains of filler - corn meal does the trick - for a total of 110 grains. You may want another lubed wad over the corn meal. New cases usually don't hold the full 120 grains though you can test yours. As you get more acquainted you can change the ratio of powder to filler. I weigh 300 lbs. and a 605 grain bullet over 110 grains of black MOVES me when I pull the trigger. Have fun.
 
You certainly can use smokeless in the 45-120, but what you use needs to balance low pressure, against high case capacity and as a result only a very few powders are suitable.

The 4th Edition of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists several load with smokeless powder for SR-4759, XMP-5744 and IMR-4350 without the need for a filler. 18-26K CUP. Even the Hodgdon site has many smokeless loads: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

I'd recommend SR-4759, my personal favourite in the 45-90, but it's been discontinued. If I was loading for it, I'd try IMR-4198 or H4198 which I have found work exceptionally well in 45 Cal chamberings from 15-50K psi.
 
I've used Pyrodex CTG in the big cases, with no problems whatsoever. I think I tried some Shockey's, and can't remember the results, but I'm still around, so, I guess they were OK. My son wants to try Trail Boss in his 45-120, but we haven't gotten around to loading yet. If you're using cartridges fired from your gun, you should be OK just sizing the necks, using a 45-70 die. You may actually be able to reload the cartridges with no sizing at all. Cleaning BP-fired cases can be a beech, to quote my latino friends. As far as cast, I use Lee moulds, and have had no issues. They're a great value for the money. If you're concerned about leading, they make a 500 gr. mould that uses gas checks. One of my favourite boolits is a 405 gr. HP. Haven't tried it on critters, though.
 
What a coincidence, I was looking for something in some old "filed" boxes yesterday and found both of those molds, both brand new & unused...didn't know I had them...don't know how long I've had them (didn't find what I wanted in the first place but was sure time well spent). Will for sure be making some of those for the 45-90's shortly
 
I'd approach Trail Boss with caution (but not avoid it totally). The normal method for finding out how much to use from Hodgdon produces higher pressures than one might expect (and I know Trail Boss produces higher pressures for a given velocity normally). I tried the 70% of case volume under the bullet as a starting load and got wonky results in a 45-70 (big velocity spread, terrible accuracy). I gave up and later found some published data for TB in a 45-70. The max load was below the starting load I found using the 70% rule. Worked fine after that.

I may recommend not using the 70% case volume under the bullet rule with Trail Boss in something like a 45-120. Maybe 50%? It ignites incredibly easily so even with a 50% load it wont have a problem going off.
 
When the DCRA opened up long range matches for Black Powder, the rules said any safe rifle originally designed for black powder. The smart fellows read the books and showed up with Martinis in .303BR. That wasn't something the committee had anticipated, so they changed the rules after Year One to specifically exclude the .303BR. That touched off (pun intended) an arms race for .45 calibre supremacy. Your 45-110 is on the long end of the spectrum, but not out of the 1000yd bullseye game.

The last time I listened in, the game winners were using gas checks on hard cast lead bullets over paper wads and duplex smokeless on the bottom and black powder on top loads. To keep the fouling down between shots for a long string, they had a little ritual that included a piece of clear vinyl hose to breathe moist air into the chamber and bore as soon as the empty was ejected.

As the shooters said - happiness at 1000yds is seeing the target go down.
 
I have used a lot of Trail B in 45 lc and tried some in 45-70. My experience with it in the 45-70 was not good, I was using the published IMR data and used them in 4 different guns, none of which shot them well.

I'm not sure that I agree with the "easy ti light" statement from my experience using it in the 45 LC. My total usage of the stuff in 45 was 12 lbs so a sizable test amount. I found it to be very position sensitive so much so that if I knew we would be shooting down hill from a stage prop (such as a palisade) I would carry a few rounds with Titegroup just for that stage or change to a set of .38 guns. If I used Trail B in these type of stages there would be a "bloop" sound to the round and there was sometimes enough unburnt powder left behind to jam up the action of the gun.

I relate all this as I think that it has a bearing on using Trail B successfully in the large case capaciy cartridges such as 45-70 and would for sure in a 45-120. A Dacron tuft or corn meal filler may eliminate the problem (for the OP...do not use a card wad alone as a powder positioner under any circumstances...a "ringed chamber" will be a distinct possibility if you do)
 
Wow guys. Thanks for the info. Gonna re read when home at the puter not the iPhone. I watched a 45-70 sharps today at the range so was picking that fellas head. Wads and fillers and black powder are all new to me. It's gonna be fun.

Looked up the bullet barn ... Place looks like just the store I need for all the bits to rig up some shells. Thanks for telling me bout it.
 
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wolf300H&H said:
Wow guys. Thanks for the info. Gonna re read when home at the puter not the iPhone. I watched a 45-70 sharps today at the range so was picking that fellas head. Wads and fillers and black powder are all new to me. It's gonna be fun.

Looked up the bullet barn ... Place looks like just the store I need for all the bits to rig up some shells. Thanks for telling me bout it.
Click to expand...

An added bonus to dealing with the Bullet Barn is that the owner shoots a .45-120 Pedersoli.
 
Teail boss may work. I use it in my 43 mauser instead of bp. I will caution though, it performa similarly to bp, but not exactly the same. You NEED to work up a lad from well below max pressure. Personally i wouldnt try and push the limits to far , as long as it is grouping well and there are no signs of over or under pressure.
 
thepolinator said:
Teail boss may work. I use it in my 43 mauser instead of bp. I will caution though, it performa similarly to bp, but not exactly the same. You NEED to work up a lad from well below max pressure. Personally i wouldnt try and push the limits to far , as long as it is grouping well and there are no signs of over or under pressure.[/QUOTE


Please define "no signs of over or under pressure". sorry for being blunt here but I just cringe when someone makes a blanket statement like that when referring to pressures in a black powder era cartridge & action ( although modern steel is used in the replicas, the action design is still built for moderate, bp era pressures). The pressure signs that come to mind for most experienced re-loaders of modern calibers (as Wolf seems to be) are far different than what an 1800's outfit can handle. Modern primers & brass don't show common pressure signs until in the 50,000 psi area...far beyond what a 25'000 psi outfit can stand, by the time pressure signs are evident it will be too late to correct.

When tailoring a smokeless load for one of my vintage or replica guns from the BP era, I only use the historically published bullet weight & speeds as my guiding light to start & end with, (a chronograph is requisite) and use the felt recoil in my comfort zone as the only other element to judge a load by.
Click to expand...
 
I'm using Bullet Barn 535s in my 45-110 and there are smokeless loads for it and the 45-120 in both Lyman cast bullet book and Cartridges of the World. I'm using IMR 4198 cause I have lots of it and it works good in most of my old Winchester lever gun cartridges.

You can shoot anything from 45-70 and up in your rifle without mishap, as long as you are running enough pressure to expand your cases properly. Accuracy will be sketchy due to the long jump but it is still safe and sometimes the long jump doesn't detract from the accuracy at all. If your pressure isn't adequate though you will soot the outside of the cases or even collapse them in a worst case scenario. Best to use at least 45-110 (2 7/8") or your 45-120.

Although these guns are safe and use modern steels, don't try to over do it.........the recoil alone is prohibitive. I spoke with a rep from Shilo regarding my Sharps and was assured that my rifle would not only withstand, but function normally with modern brass at 50,000 psi and have in fact loaded and shot 500 gn jacketed bullets at 2250 fps.........but like I said the recoil was prohibitive, curved steel butt plate and all. The Sharps designed mortised falling block is a very, very strong design and in modern steels is as tough as a Ruger #1 but the stock design will not take the recoil for long so best not to go there, but do not be afraid of your rifle as it will not come unglued on you if you screw up a little.
I have found with my Sharps the 535-570 gn bullets at 1500 fps is about all I can stand for 50 rounds or so in an afternoon and I am well seasoned to recoil.
 
Came across a duplex load in Ken Waters Pet Loads book for the 45-120-3 1/4" Sharps 414gr Ohaus cast bullet/90gr FFG [BULK NOT WEIGHT] with 7gr of either SR4759 or IMR 4227 over the primer to start the fire.Harold
 
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