Reloading (trouble) and (my) Marlin 1894 (.357)

[diananike]

So I bought a Marlin 1894 .357 a few years back (8).
I'm lucky to have got one just before Remington bought Marlin out and the fit and finish was gorgeous on it. It is of relatively recent manufacture and therefore has Ballard rifling rather than the dreaded microgrooves.

At first I put a small 2.5x weaver scope on it and it was quite accurate with Federal American Eagle .357 158gr JSPs, and Remington .38 158gr LRN.
The first discovery, which will come as no surprise to those in the know, was the difference in POI between the Magnums and the much lower powered .38s. At 25yds the .38s would shoot about 4" higher than the .357s, at 50yds you would just plain miss with 8" deviations between the two.
Obviously this means you'd have to use the ammo it was sighted in for, then rezero if you wanted to switch to other ammo and hit anything at any range.


The other thing I realized pretty quickly is it wouldnt shoot lead bullets very well, this despite being Ballard rifled. One exception was the Remington LRN factory load which shot awesome and claimed many a beavers life with headshots. None of the lead bullets or loads I tried did any better than 4" at 50yds. In contrast all the Jacketed bullets I used shot great! This rifle LOOOVVVEEES XTPs and has shot great with just about every weight or charge. Problem is XTPs are 26.99 for a box of 100 nowadays. Fine expenditure for hunting but I needed to find a cheaper bullet to reload for practice and fun.

Lead bullets were sucking. It was kind of a mystery so I tried all kinds of powders to no avail. It was only after I came on here looking for powdercoated bullets that someone ( thank you B ) pointed me in the direction of the bullet that may have solved my dilemna.

Anyway I recently got some new bullets and did some further testing so without further ado.

The Rifle:

I ditched the scope and put on a set of skinner sights, incidentally you will need their taller front sight to go with the rear, as the original Marlin bead is not tall enough.

The Pistol: This is the Ruger 4.2" SP101 that digest anything the rifle doesnt like with gusto.

The Bullets: L-R, Rem 125gr JSP Factory, Hornady 140gr xtp, Hornady 158gr LSWC, Cactus plains Hardcast 158gr LSWC, Berry's 158gr Plated RN, Loaded .357 158gr XTP, Campro 158gr Plated SWC

Each of the bullets presented its own set of problems.

XTP: Actually these presented no problems at all, I shot 125, 140, and 158gr XTPs over a multitude of powders with loads ranging from good to extremely accurate. Of all the bullets I've tried the 158gr XTPs are my favorite, with a stiff load of Lil Gun getting close to 2000fps these bullets are my first choice for any serious work.

Hornady 158gr swaged LSWC: Shot these in both Plain and Hollowpoint forms. They would jam up the action pretty often with the shoulder hitting the edge of the chamber. Even in .38 cases they were jamming. They also shot pretty inaccurately with the faster pistol powders (HP38, Titegroup, Unique, etc.). I didnt bother trying these with magnum powders in the .357 cases.

Cactus Plains 158gr Hardcast LSWC: The first problem with these is when theyre loaded in Marlin cases the OAL is so long they'll hang up the action sometimes. The only way they'll feed reliably is loaded in .38 cases. With all the powders I tried, in either .38 or .357 cases I could not get these to shoot any better than 4" at 50yds. The revolver loves them in any form.

Berry's 158gr Plated RN: First problem with these is they wont feed when loaded in .357 cases, the RN is just too long and you need to crimp on the flat shank so you wind up with waaay too long an OAL. In .38 cases they feed like greased lightning. You need to give them a strong crimp bending into the plating, this is so the crimp holds the bullet in place from all the pressure on its nose from the preceding bullet in the magazine tube. A mild crimp invariably results in bullet setback once theres more than 3 in the tube. They dont shoot very accurately in the Marlin anyway. My favorite load for the revolver is a stiff .38/44 load of HP38 behind these RNs, crimped hard, these fall out of a speedloader like magnets.

Campro 158gr Plated SWC: This bullet is perfect for the Marlin. It crimps high so the nose is short enough to feed in .357 cases no problemo. The crimp groove allows you to apply a strong crimp without compromising the plating. The profile is actually quite similar to the XTPs I love so much. Apparently these are thicker plated for better results at rifle velocities too. How do the shoot, well thats exactly where this post is going...

As soon as I get home, apparently I left a bunch of the data I need there.

 

[diananike]

The Powders:

Well as promised heres a couple of loads I tried.

My first testing was at 25 yards. As many lead loads Ive tried previously were pretty bad at this range its a reasonable testing distance.

The Cast H110 load grouped exactly as I was expecting, not very good. I havent chronied it in the Marlin, but it shoots about 1240fps in the 4.2" SP101

Also the Hornady XTP also performed as expected, this is also quite accurate at 50yds.

The swaged HP38 load also grouped as expected. This load Chronys at 1038 avg from the 18.5" Marlin and 830avg from the 4.2" SP101

The Plated .38 load consisted of a .38/44 level load of HP38, I wont specify as its well over +P pressure. My SP101 is quite accurate with them. This load Chronys at 1178 avg from the 18.5" Marlin and 937avg from the 4.2" SP101.

Looks like these Campros are promising!

Also strange that the Plated Berrys grouped quite well in this target, anomaly? Decided to try them at 50yds to find out.
These loads are quite moderate, as I'm working my way up.

Well lets head out to 50yds with the Campros

I quite like this load of 15.1gr H110/ magnum primer. It feels quite powerful. I think I'll load a few more velocity test it and try grouping it again. I did chrony this 15.1gr H110 load with the Berrys RN and it averaged 1660fps.

I wasnt impressed with the .38/44 Berrys RN HP38 load at 50yds, looks like the group at 25yds was an anomaly.

A max load of HS6 really didnt shoot that great unfortunately.

Although not very potent, this titegroup load shoots great, right at POA/POI and is economical. I will further test it for velocity and POI at 100yds. For plinking this load might be perfect. Unfortunately it is not terribly powerful, around 1200fps, it is pretty much max for pressure though. I'm loading up a few hundred of these to finally have some fun with this rifle.

Wasnt so impressed with the loading of the HP38 Campro SWC.

Well all told I'm very happy with these Campro bullets, I'm ordering a 1000 of them, and looking forward to doing more load testing, especially with the chrono. Maybe on Sunday. Standby.

 

[B]

I'm interested to see some chrony results. I'm picking up a Rossi .357 sooner or later. I'm hoping the longer barrel produces some nice velocities.

 

[LUTNIT]

I assume your Marlin has Micro Groove rifling? They have some special considerations when it comes to lead bullets. Most people seem to have luck with gas checks, extra hard cast, oversized more than normal, and pushed with a magnum powder. If you don't use a gas check, slow them down, they aren't big enough, or you use a softer alloy they tend to lead the barrel quite badly and group very poorly.

I have an 1894 in .44 Mag and had a hell of time trying to get cast to shoot well in it. Micro Groove barrels seem to be very tempermental and one will shoot cast well under the above conditions and some still wont shoot cast no matter what. Mine seems to be one of the latter as it wont shoot cast at all. It's one of the few rifles I powder coat my cast for as it's the only way I can keep it from leading and still produce half decent groups. A .44 mag is normally around .429" but mine slugs .4315" and I've read several people who say Micro Groove barrels do slug larger than normal.

I've given up on uncoated cast in my 1894. Loads that shot well only did for a few rounds before there was so much lead in the bore it took hours to scrub it all out. The only loads that didn't lead badly were under 1100fps and weren't too accurate. I have some very nice loads now using hard cast lead alloy (melted down extra hard lead shot), a gas check, oversized (.432" with the powder coat), and pushed with mag powders (H110/WW296 or SR-4759).

 

[diananike]

Great advice, id like to try a oversized cast gaschecked bullet too, especially if i can find one cheaper than the campros, im in an apartment right now so caating isnt really doable. I did try a cast lee 158gr tumblelube mould years ago and it didnt shoot that great.

Sorry I should of mentioned my 1894 has conventional Ballard rifling, it isn't a microgrooves one.

 

[LUTNIT]

With the regular ballard rifling cast shouldn't be an issue. Have you slugged the bore to make sure you are using a properly sized bullet? I find retail cast bullets are often sized for a ideal groove diameter which is rarely the case. You want the bullets to be .001" to .002" larger than your groove diameter. Most retail .38/.357 cast bullets I've seen are .357" and sometimes .358". If you have a slightly larger barrel (even a .3585") then they wont shoot that well.

If the throat is extra long you may want to get an even bigger bullet that will fill the throat regardless of the bore diameter (the bullet will swage down to be a perfect fit in the bore).

I am reloading for a Swedish rolling block in 8x58RD now which has a barrel that slugs .3230" and I'm using .324" bullets. The throat is huge and after firing 50 cast loads through it I had a spotless bore. The throat was leaded up incredibly though so it looks like I'll have to try the Lee .329" to better fit the throat. I may also try paper patched bullets (.315" up to .325") to try to get rid of the throat leading. If your rifle has a normal throat in the barrel (like most pistol calibre carbines do) then what I ran into shouldn't be an issue for you (and it isn't for nearly all my other rifles).

 

[Chrossphyre]

Have you slugged the bore to make sure you are using a properly sized bullet?

I'll second that motion. With Ballard rifling you want to slug the barrel and find out exactly what groove diameter you are working with. I'd bet money that is why you are struggling with cast and jacketed/plated works better.

 

[Lilabell]

HOWDY; LEAD= use round nose flat point bullets like the cowboys do. Cycles great, SWC will never feed smoothly. Clean the crap out of the copper fouling in the barrel, shoot 50 plus lead to season the barrel, then clean and shoot for accuracy with lead. If you shoot copper bullet then start again. Tightgroup, Unique, 2400, have all worked for me when done right.
Micro-groove will launch lead within reason.
VICIOUS

 

[diananike]

I'll second that motion. With Ballard rifling you want to slug the barrel and find out exactly what groove diameter you are working with. I'd bet money that is why you are struggling with cast and jacketed/plated works better.

I will take your advice and slug my barrel, although casting isn't really an option for me at the moment I'd like to know what the issue is.
This rifle is so slick, handy and beautifully crafted I'm with it for the long run.
It does shoot well with jacketed so I know its got potential.

 

[LUTNIT]

If you slug the bore you can see if you can order some custom sized bullets from someplace. Jethunter here on CGN, R&R bullets, or The Bullet Barn perhaps.

 

[diananike]

Added groups and chrony data to second post.
I'll shoot a few more loads over the chrony on Sunday, at least the ones I like.




My first testing was at 25 yards. As many lead loads Ive tried previously were pretty bad at this range its a reasonable testing distance.

The Cast H110 load grouped exactly as I was expecting, not very good. I havent chronied it in the Marlin, but it shoots about 1240fps in the 4.2" SP101

Also the Hornady XTP also performed as expected, this is also quite accurate at 50yds.

The swaged HP38 load also grouped as expected. This load Chronys at 1038 avg from the 18.5" Marlin and 830avg from the 4.2" SP101

The Plated .38 load consisted of a .38/44 level load of HP38, I wont specify as its well over +P pressure. My SP101 is quite accurate with them. This load Chronys at 1178 avg from the 18.5" Marlin and 937avg from the 4.2" SP101.

Looks like these Campros are promising!

Also strange that the Plated Berrys grouped quite well in this target, anomaly? Decided to try them at 50yds to find out.
These loads are quite moderate, as I'm working my way up.

Well lets head out to 50yds with the Campros

I quite like this load of 15.1gr H110/ magnum primer. It feels quite powerful. I think I'll load a few more velocity test it and try grouping it again. I did chrony this 15.1gr H110 load with the Berrys RN and it averaged 1660fps.

I wasnt impressed with the .38/44 Berrys RN HP38 load at 50yds, looks like the group at 25yds was an anomaly.

A max load of HS6 really didnt shoot that great unfortunately.

Although not very potent, this titegroup load shoots great, right at POA/POI and is economical. I will further test it for velocity and POI at 100yds. For plinking this load might be perfect. Unfortunately it is not terribly powerful, avg 1215fps, it is pretty much max for pressure though. I'm loading up a few hundred of these to finally have some fun with this rifle.

Wasnt so impressed with the loading of the HP38 Campro SWC.

Well all told I'm very happy with these Campro bullets, I'm ordering a 1000 of them, and looking forward to doing more load testing, especially with the chrono. Maybe on Sunday. Standby.