Reloading: What is overkill?
- Thread starter K.s.47
- Start date
Some guys have much different standards than others. Some of the guys I reload with shoot matches and long range. I'm personally happy with 1MOA but others will test fire with new primers, adjust charges by 1/10grain, alter the OAL again and again.
I generally like to load for cartridges that are difficult to find, and improve performance compared to surplus and bulk loads, or just cheap off the shelf ammunition.
I reload with a group of a dozen guys and my shop is usually the brass/case-prep stage. In the past we've picked up a 50 gallon cardboard drum of once fired brass. Get it all cleaned up and then split it eight, ten, or more different ways. Lately the projects have been 8x57 from 30.06 brass, 38-55, lead bullet casting, 12gauge slugs, buckshot, and various cowboy loads.
At any given time I have ten projects in front of me. It keeps the hobby going all year long, winter is the reloading season, my shop always has visitors, we save cash on bulk deals, and we always have 4 or 5 test groups that need to go to the farm or range to be tested.
For those of us that don't watch TV, it keeps us busy, and except for the range we have lots of small children running around.
I generally like to load for cartridges that are difficult to find, and improve performance compared to surplus and bulk loads, or just cheap off the shelf ammunition.
I reload with a group of a dozen guys and my shop is usually the brass/case-prep stage. In the past we've picked up a 50 gallon cardboard drum of once fired brass. Get it all cleaned up and then split it eight, ten, or more different ways. Lately the projects have been 8x57 from 30.06 brass, 38-55, lead bullet casting, 12gauge slugs, buckshot, and various cowboy loads.
At any given time I have ten projects in front of me. It keeps the hobby going all year long, winter is the reloading season, my shop always has visitors, we save cash on bulk deals, and we always have 4 or 5 test groups that need to go to the farm or range to be tested.
For those of us that don't watch TV, it keeps us busy, and except for the range we have lots of small children running around.
Overkill? is so subjective
Most of my reloads can go in the '2 decimal point' group, get a supergoodenough hunting load near 1 moa and shoot til the brass cracks before buying new
loading for 6 or 8 hunting rifles definitely saves funds, just to be spent on more shooting
Most of my reloads can go in the '2 decimal point' group, get a supergoodenough hunting load near 1 moa and shoot til the brass cracks before buying new
loading for 6 or 8 hunting rifles definitely saves funds, just to be spent on more shooting
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
Another thing to consider is the normal statistical variation in accuracy that you’ll experience.
Litz claims that rifles follow a 30% accuracy standard deviation. This means that a 1 moa rifle will shoot between .7 and 1.3 moa to be within 1 standard deviation.
Keeping this in mind its very difficult to determine what changes in accuracy a given reloading practice will produce. If a practice reduced your average group size by .1moa, you’d have to fire a lot of rounds to determine that. Doing tests with 5-10 rounds are worthless unless the effects of the reloading practice are huge.
Litz claims that rifles follow a 30% accuracy standard deviation. This means that a 1 moa rifle will shoot between .7 and 1.3 moa to be within 1 standard deviation.
Keeping this in mind its very difficult to determine what changes in accuracy a given reloading practice will produce. If a practice reduced your average group size by .1moa, you’d have to fire a lot of rounds to determine that. Doing tests with 5-10 rounds are worthless unless the effects of the reloading practice are huge.
As you already mentioned, you'll get out of it what you put into it...and only you can decide what you want to get out of it.
It may just be to produce cheaper ammo than what you can buy...if you are shooting a lot! As it will take a lot of shooting to get to where you are recouping your investment in the reloading equipment and components.
It may be to develop more accurate ammo for your firearm than that which you can buy from the ammo manufacturers.
Or you want to shoot or hunt with a particular bullet that no manufacturer is loading for your cartridge/rifle.
It may be that you are loading for firearms that the manufacturers are not loading for on a regular basis, and if you want to keep shooting and hunting with that firearm, you need to reload for it.
Or you may just be one of those that enjoys the hobby, wants to learn more about the whole process, and/or takes pride in developing an accurate load for that pet firearm and hunting with, knowing that the game harvested and the meat on the table you share with family and friends came from your efforts (a rewarding sense of pride and accomplishment!).
So, as far as overkill...it is only overkill, if you believe it to be. Simple works and can be very satisfying...but you can delve into to it as deep as you want to obtain your desired results and expectations. If you do not get what you are hoping to achieve, take it to the next level...whether that is adjusting seating depth, trying various components, reaming necks for thickness, checking runout, etc. to determine what will get you to where you want to be.
Myself, there is a bit of all the factors above that relate to my reloading habits. But most importantly for me, is an accurate load with my preferred bullet for a specific cartridge/rifle combination that will reliably result in quick, clean kills when I do my part, and puts meat on the table. There is a lot of fun, sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with that, putting smiles on faces and great memories to share with family and friends as the years go by!
Enjoy!
It may just be to produce cheaper ammo than what you can buy...if you are shooting a lot! As it will take a lot of shooting to get to where you are recouping your investment in the reloading equipment and components.
It may be to develop more accurate ammo for your firearm than that which you can buy from the ammo manufacturers.
Or you want to shoot or hunt with a particular bullet that no manufacturer is loading for your cartridge/rifle.
It may be that you are loading for firearms that the manufacturers are not loading for on a regular basis, and if you want to keep shooting and hunting with that firearm, you need to reload for it.
Or you may just be one of those that enjoys the hobby, wants to learn more about the whole process, and/or takes pride in developing an accurate load for that pet firearm and hunting with, knowing that the game harvested and the meat on the table you share with family and friends came from your efforts (a rewarding sense of pride and accomplishment!).
So, as far as overkill...it is only overkill, if you believe it to be. Simple works and can be very satisfying...but you can delve into to it as deep as you want to obtain your desired results and expectations. If you do not get what you are hoping to achieve, take it to the next level...whether that is adjusting seating depth, trying various components, reaming necks for thickness, checking runout, etc. to determine what will get you to where you want to be.
Myself, there is a bit of all the factors above that relate to my reloading habits. But most importantly for me, is an accurate load with my preferred bullet for a specific cartridge/rifle combination that will reliably result in quick, clean kills when I do my part, and puts meat on the table. There is a lot of fun, sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with that, putting smiles on faces and great memories to share with family and friends as the years go by!
Enjoy!
To me, reloading overkill for a hunting cartridge is when hand-loaders are obsessed with es+ sd+ bc+ annealing= vd. I concentrate on what's on paper (groups) and any sign of pressure (stiff bolt lift, head of brass case, primer) KISS- Keep It Simple Silly.
This is sorta true but not really.
Lots get exceptional results with 3-5 shot groups, then confirming with larger group samples at distance. If your close range, low shot string confirms itself at distance then how can it not work? My last load work ups have only been getting better each time. After OCW powder, and seating depth being done at 100. I did a 300 yard seating tweak, then had great results at 500. You would shoot out your barrel before your load is figured out if going by Litz.
I hand load for several reasons, the main ones being ammo availability,accuracy and cost.
For my hunting rifles, because I shoot a particular bullet in my main rifle that is not available with factory ammo.
In the centerfire rifles I shoot at the range for relaxation and matches, I could not afford to shoot factory ammo in them for the number of rounds I shoot in a year, and my ammo is tailored for each rifle and far more accurate than any factory available stuff.
I do not use electronics like scales or tricklers for hand loading , and I load with a single stage press, 50 cases per stage.
Doing 50 at a time for each stage ( sizing/decapping , trimming, priming , etc.) tends to speed things up a bit, and lets me check the cases out on a regular basis.
The expensive parts of my loading equipment are the dies.......
Cat
For my hunting rifles, because I shoot a particular bullet in my main rifle that is not available with factory ammo.
In the centerfire rifles I shoot at the range for relaxation and matches, I could not afford to shoot factory ammo in them for the number of rounds I shoot in a year, and my ammo is tailored for each rifle and far more accurate than any factory available stuff.
I do not use electronics like scales or tricklers for hand loading , and I load with a single stage press, 50 cases per stage.
Doing 50 at a time for each stage ( sizing/decapping , trimming, priming , etc.) tends to speed things up a bit, and lets me check the cases out on a regular basis.
The expensive parts of my loading equipment are the dies.......
Cat
I wouldn't say I enjoy loading more than shooting, they're about equal for me. I listen to podcasts and take my time.
As required I clean, size, anneal, trim, deburr flash hole, clean and uniform primer pockets, chamfer the mouth, brush the neck inside and give a polish.
I like experimenting with different loads and seating depths, keeping notes and records and I like using tools.
I don't hunt, and just target shoot for fun, so probably overkill yes, but it's my hobby.
The beauty of reloading is as long as you are safe there is no such thing as over or under kill...Just depends on the individual and their needs and mood.
One thing I learnt the hard way after over 40 years at this game is that a precision rifle takes a lot of the fuss out of reloading...The benefit curve of custom tailored rounds for factory rifles is much steeper than for precision built rifles.
I have more than a few examples where 2 or more factory rifles in the same chambering need their own tailored brass and recipe to get any where near the half MOA level of accuracy...On the other end of the spectrum my 8 precision .308's and I'd have to go count how many precision .223's all shoot full length sized brass with the same powder charge and bullet under, at or very close to the half MOA level of accuracy...Plenty good enough for what I want to accomplish.
For me at this stage it makes more sense to go overkill on the rifle and scope and concentrate on reloading at a moderate level of fuss with high quality components and just shoot more.
One thing I learnt the hard way after over 40 years at this game is that a precision rifle takes a lot of the fuss out of reloading...The benefit curve of custom tailored rounds for factory rifles is much steeper than for precision built rifles.
I have more than a few examples where 2 or more factory rifles in the same chambering need their own tailored brass and recipe to get any where near the half MOA level of accuracy...On the other end of the spectrum my 8 precision .308's and I'd have to go count how many precision .223's all shoot full length sized brass with the same powder charge and bullet under, at or very close to the half MOA level of accuracy...Plenty good enough for what I want to accomplish.
For me at this stage it makes more sense to go overkill on the rifle and scope and concentrate on reloading at a moderate level of fuss with high quality components and just shoot more.
You've definitely become an accuracy addict over the years. It's a really tough addiction to overcome, I hear it's harder than quitting smoking??
I haven't shot in competition for more than a decade but I still just can't get over the extreme accuracy addiction and it's cost me a lot of time and money.
I seldom shoot or hunt with a factory built rifle and haven't for close to 45 years.
I will admit I'm an accuracy junkie that has gone to great lengths to get what I want out of a certain rifle with the components it prefers.
Hunting accuracy out to sane ranges, other than under very special conditions, doesn't require more than 2 moa for the most part and if the shooter does their job properly that type of accuracy will take any Deer/Bear sized and larger animals cleanly.
Sadly, many off the shelf rifles, especially some of the older ones, will not shoot factory or even handloads into groups tighter than 3-4 moa. The main reason for this is that's all that was required of those rifles as a standard for decades.
Things have changed for the better when it comes to consistent standards for both firearms and ammunition.
There are some very exceptional off the shelf factory rifles out there and they're forcing the other firearms manufacturers to meet their standards or shut down and they're doing it in a relatively affordable manner.
Handloading components are better now than they've ever been. Hopefully the new Remington components will meet or exceed their previous standards.
Last summer, just to satisfy my own curiosity, I took out my trusted Antonio Zoli, which is a licensed copy of a Husqvarna but much smoother, to the range to test how bullet consistency has changed over 35 years.
I had a couple of 100 ct 150 grain Sierra Game King unopened boxes as well as a couple of boxes of recent manufacture SGKs.
Just to make the test relatively viable, I weighed out 20 bullets from each lot and kept the mean weights within a half grain of each other for both lots.
Both lots were dimensionally identical but it was difficult to get consistent bullet weights with the older batch and quite easy with the later batch.
I used the same load of 56.5 grains of H414SL10 (W760) over CCI250 primers in once fired and weighed Federal Gold Medal Match cases, neck sized only as they had been fired in the Antonio Zoli.
The scope is a fixed 6X Luepold with front AO.
This rifle is one of those jewels that will shoot well even from a freshly cleaned bore. Still, I shot two fouling rounds with the same loads before starting testing.
All shooting was done from a machine front rest and a bunny bag off a very stable bench on a range with high berms that doesn't have wind issues or mirage issues at 70F on a clear day.
I shot four groups of five at 100 yards with each batch of handloads.
The average group from this hunting rifle for the 35 year old bullets was just over 1.25 inches over 20 rounds with nothing outside of 1.4 inches or under 1.00 inches.
The average group from the later manufacture, from a freshly cleaned and fouled bore was .95 inches over 20 rounds with nothing outside of 1.15 inches and nothing under .75 inches.
Now, I know this test isn't definitive in any spectacular way but the only thing I can base the quite substantial accuracy increase on was supposedly better manufacturing tolerances and more precicely made machinery.
Both lots of bullets were plenty accurate enough for hunting purposes out to and past 300 yards.
I used the SGKs for this test because I knew when the bullets were produced and that they were one of the hunting bullets preferred by the Antonio Zoli.
My test is only relevant for my purposes but likely pretty much about what to expect from other components and the differences would increase over the time between manufacturing. This might not pertain to match quality bullets of either era.
Most people don't even attempt to find out which factory ammo their rifles will shoot well. This is due to all sorts of things but mostly cost and then the fact that as often as not, mid grade ammunition and low end ammunition will often change components between one lot and the next. Especially powder lots.
That's where hand loading really shines with a hunting grade rifle.
Handloading gives the shooter the ability to "tune'' their load with each batch of components to the rifle they're using.
It's not so common now, because of tighter tolerances in manufacture of all of the components, from one lot to the next but there was a time, not long ago that if you changed anything from your previous batch of cartridge assembly, bullets, brass, primer lot, powder lot the point of impact, velocities, group size would change dramatically, to the point you couldn't trust the accuracy over 100 yards.
That's mostly changed now.
One thing to keep in mind though, one bullet diameter groups, even with todays quality components is a myth for the most part or at best a fluke and most rifles just aren't capable of such groups other than a spectacular one off.
In 2009 I bought a Lee Anniversary kit in Buffalo NY for maybe $120. I still use that kit today with the addition of: a powder trickler, an RCBS balance beam scale, a digital scale for back up, a Vernier caliper, and some other odds and ends to make life easier.
I do: .308, 762x54R, 8x56R, .303 Br, .223, 9mm (low volume), 8x57, 6.5x55, and some others.
About the only thing I go 'crazy' on is weighing my .223 brass for my bolt-gun once it's sized and trimmed. I only have 100 cases going at a time. Anything too far out just goes to my semi-autos instead.
I used to try and do 'bulk' by saving money using cheaper bullets, but I found that the time invested wasn't worth the savings. If I was going to spend the time doing this, it would be for match quality ammo, or as reasonably close as I could get. I don't even know how much I've been able to shoot/save over the years because of this, but it's substantial. The real advantage to reloading is being able to buy in bulk to get you through the thin times (like now), and to play with O.A.L., bullet types/weights, crimping etc, to see what works.
I do: .308, 762x54R, 8x56R, .303 Br, .223, 9mm (low volume), 8x57, 6.5x55, and some others.
About the only thing I go 'crazy' on is weighing my .223 brass for my bolt-gun once it's sized and trimmed. I only have 100 cases going at a time. Anything too far out just goes to my semi-autos instead.
I used to try and do 'bulk' by saving money using cheaper bullets, but I found that the time invested wasn't worth the savings. If I was going to spend the time doing this, it would be for match quality ammo, or as reasonably close as I could get. I don't even know how much I've been able to shoot/save over the years because of this, but it's substantial. The real advantage to reloading is being able to buy in bulk to get you through the thin times (like now), and to play with O.A.L., bullet types/weights, crimping etc, to see what works.
My short definition of overkill: when you've added several steps to your reloading process, along with a substantial increase in teh amount of time spent on those steps, only to have no measurable improvement in your end product - group size / target score or end results on game.
- Location
- Newfoundland
I only just started reloading and mostly got into it to keep me 38s&w and 303 British fed. I don’t think about tack driving with any of my guns honestly if I can shoot 3moa at 100 yards for rifle and 25 yards with pistol I’m happy for now anyway, most of my reloading is trying to replicate cheap factory ammo performance mostly because at least on the island it’s easier to get components then it is factory ammo
I like when that happens, then you learn what you need to eliminate.
I am pretty much the same.
Since the glut of supplies hit, i have found it a fun challenge to try different loads/components in my rifles - using only what i have on hand. Previously i dialed in one load and stopped there.
I now have developed r15/Varget/H4895 loads for 105/107's in two 6mmBr's that are all sub 1/2 moa, tweaked R15/Varget loads for 60/80gr 223W to sub 1/2 moa, and dialed in 6.5cm loads with R26/R16 with 140gr berg/eldm, again, sub 1/2 moa on top of the standard h4350 loads.
My current challenge is getting the same accuracy out of a PRC with 140 Impacts and 142/150 LRAB. So far its eluding me with h1000, r26, and v565....
.30/06 FTW
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Thunder Bay, Ontario
I think most people would say I do overkill with my reloading. I only load for pistol but I sort all my brass, and I ream and uniform every primer pocket. For brands like S&B, that's necessary, for others it's not. But I also basically never have an issue on the press, and I do it while I watch TV, and I don't waste the ammo because I know how much work has gone into it.
