Rem 700 bolt timing issue?

Leeper said:
If one wants to weld up the surface or build it up using a spray weld technique, that can be done, I suppose. However, if you are going to do any welding, you might as well remove the darn handle, locate it where it should be, and have it TIG welded in place. I actually think this is the BEST way to do it but since I never have had a TIG welder, I have never done it and have relied on silver brazing. I believe Guntech has had some done this way and can probably tell us more about the results.
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I received some really good info from a fellow in Alaska who has done hundreds of welding jobs on 700 bolts... I don't tig or mig but I have set up a couple of handles and had them done by a shop... it really important no welding takes place on the front edge of the bolt handle... just too hard to reshape that area where it cams... spot a couple of places on the back and check for function, then a big weld under the handle and on the back and on the top... file the top, a clean weld on the bottom can be left, clean up the back... cut a relief on the bottom and top for the weld to penetrate before clamping the handle in place. You can clamp it with an altered small pointy Vice Grip and check the function in the action... and after spot welding take the Vice Grips off and thread in a brass heat sink...

Pain in the ass job... the initial cam area on the bolt and action is the biggest weakness in a 700 action as far as I am concerned... the bolt seems to 'pound' a dimple quite quickly with hot loads...
 
358Rooster said:
Again, thanks for replies. I'll try to address as best I can (just try to remember, I'm a good kid but not all that bright;)

1) The bolt handle can not be moved forward .030", as I only have .026" between handle and action as it is, unless some of the non-critical portion of the handle is removed to attain that dimension. Prior to cleaning everything, I noticed a small 'smudge' in the grease where the handle made near contact with the angled cut in the receiver. Not hard enough contact to put a shine on the area but close enough to leave evidence that it's almost there. Maybe it doesn't need major surgery just yet... I've been thinking that if I took more material off the bottom corner of that cut, it should allow more purchase between the handle and the face of the receiver cut. This might be a bit of a gamble. However, if I'm looking at surgery anyway, there's not a lot to lose, is there?

2) That is a carbon bolt. And yes, regrettably, there is a small bit of galling on one lug. This pisses me off because I was going to argue that it is far more likely to have galling between stainless parts than SS/CS parts (which it is). But I guess I'll have to eat crow on this one :redface: Yes, I do use good grease but maybe some unintentional neglect has come into play here. I'm often faced with, "hey, I actually have a very rare bit of time here! Grab a rifle & let's go!" From my way of thinking, if it were the amount of material removed from the lugs in the first place that sets the bolt assembly too far back and causes my issue, it would have been an issue from the start, correct?

3) As far as I can tell, there doesn't appear to be set back. Now, this is tough to quantify without chucking up & dragging a finger dial over it but visually, I can see a bit of burnishing but no defined ridges / steps, etc. Just that damn bit of galling at the minor diameter of the right lug. As far as hot loads go, I have to say no. During testing, the 32nd round since build completion created a stiff bolt lift. Nothing requiring hammering or anything. I soon after settled on a load 2.5 grains under that load and have been using it ever since.

I really need to get some brass annealed and try that approach to at least eliminate it as a variable. What do you all think of knocking that bottom edge down on the receiver cut to get more contact between bolt & receiver cam face? The only hard contact is at that bottom corner.

Guys, I know it's very difficult to diagnose things like this in this manner but I really appreciate the effort!

Rooster
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If it only has .026 clearance, then move it ahead .020; or move it ahead by 030 and file clearance on the front. Or move it ahead .020 and counterclockwise a bit. Just do something to regain some primary extraction. The problem is there, it is plain to see and the cure is obvious. By the way, I have seen Remington 700's fired with severe overloads and the lugs didn't setback. I have seen locking lugs and seats worn and badly galled but not set back.
Reminton used chromoly bolt heads and stainless bodies on early stainless models to minimize galling but it still happens. Later stainless models use stainless bolt heads, I think. Whatever, galling is no worse.
 
Leeper said:
If it only has .026 clearance, then move it ahead .020; or move it ahead by 030 and file clearance on the front. Or move it ahead .020 and counterclockwise a bit. Just do something to regain some primary extraction. The problem is there, it is plain to see and the cure is obvious. By the way, I have seen Remington 700's fired with severe overloads and the lugs didn't setback. I have seen locking lugs and seats worn and badly galled but not set back.
Reminton used chromoly bolt heads and stainless bodies on early stainless models to minimize galling but it still happens. Later stainless models use stainless bolt heads, I think. Whatever, galling is no worse.
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Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have a Model 700 receiver with set back. It was picked up in a trade I made on a box of parts. The receiver was the main attraction for me. I went to true it up and noticed the set back on the lug ways. Very obvious. Not sure why the lug ways were set back. I surmised extreme pressure rounds. It certainly happened to several Mausers I've seen as well.

Don't get me wrong, Remington 700s and their variants are my favorite actions and my receiver is the only one I have ever seen with set back. There was a reason it was in the parts box. The main one was to attract my eye and because whoever stripped it down knew it had set back.
 
I have seen a few set back actions, a few with jugged chambers but I have never seen a 700 with set back... You have a rare item... I wonder what and how it happened...?
 
In the original post the action was trued and the smith indicated that the timing was minimal.
In the photos it's very clear that the bolt handle has too much forward clearance. Lug setback has nothing to do with it.
Looks like someone got over zealous with removing too much metal from behind the bolt lugs and action lug recess. A warm load and you have minimal camming to extract it.

The cure is simple, move the bolt handle forward. I wonder if sage advise will be noticed? ;)
 
WRT M700 handles, I had a sack of salvaged 700 parts including a LA '06 faced bolt with its handle torn off. In my odds and ends, there was a blank bolt handle I got from Brownells. Ruger pattern handle, with a plain wrap around saddle. Carefully measured and shaped the saddle to duplicate a M700. Silver brazed it in place. Very carefully fitted the saddle and cam to the receiver. Lapped them together. Camming starts as early as possible, with no prior rearward movement of the bolt. Installed a take-off .30-06 barrel and stocked it up in a decent used wooden 700ADL stock. Rifle shoots really well, cost next to nothing.
When I am attaching a 700 handle, I prefer paste silver braze. Already fluxed. Use two jigs. One is a standard Brownells bolt handle welding jig. The other is one I made. 1/2-13 bolt threads into the bolt body. There is a bar which is secured to a drilled and tapped 1/4-20 hole in the bolt. At each end of the bar are two 1/4-20 rods. One tightens down against the rear of the 1/2-13 bolt; the other against the saddle of the bolt handle. Sort of a teeter totter. The handle's saddle is pressed firmly against the bolt, and held securely in place - so it can't shift or wiggle. Heat stop paste all over. The 1/2-13 bolt threaded into the bolt body keeps the threads clean.
To confirm orientation, install the handleless bolt in the receiver, have it just unlocked. Place the handle in position, with its rotation stop against the receiver lug way. Scribe a reference line on the rear of the bolt body and the saddle.
 
EHG said:
In the original post the action was trued and the smith indicated that the timing was minimal.
In the photos it's very clear that the bolt handle has too much forward clearance. Lug setback has nothing to do with it.
Looks like someone got over zealous with removing too much metal from behind the bolt lugs and action lug recess. A warm load and you have minimal camming to extract it.

The cure is simple, move the bolt handle forward. I wonder if sage advise will be noticed? ;)
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EHG; I don't mean to make an example of you or anything of the sort, so please don't take it that way from my following comments. I am simply using your post as a springboard. Still no one has answered with an opinion about my thought to radius the bottom edge of the receiver cut to gain more purchase with the bolt handle on the face of that cut. I will go into long-winded, update detail with pictures within the next day or two (stressful, seemingly endless work, parental obligations, general waking fortitude will delay b: )

I can assure you that the material removed from the back side of the bolt lugs was indeed minimal. I worked as a machinist for about 19 years, so I do have some concept (stated simply and solely for posterity & clarity - sadly, I no longer have access to this equipment). There is evidence of factory Parkerizing at the minor diameter of each of the lugs, indicating only the slightest of material tapered (backward) toward the OD of the lugs was removed. In addition to this, the parkerizing remains on the radii of the lugs in almost full radius form. So I'm sorry, I don't believe that he got overzealous when truing. As I have stated, I used a donor bolt and as we all know, there are tolerances in machined parts. To take one part originally fitted to a mating part, then transferred to another part and expecting the same fit is a bit lofty. We all know that. And I went into this thing knowing that.

Again, I know it's hard to diagnose in this manner and I'm trying very hard to not be that A-hole who asks for advice and then discounts it all, claiming to know better. I've done a few things since my last post & will show you guys soon enough - I think I may be in the clear. Will find out soon, as I am annealing tonight and with luck, shooting early this week to hopefully eliminate this variable.

And EHG; I am listening ;) Thanks bud!

Rooster
 
Rooster, I must thank you for the excellent clarity and descriptive posts. It has also spurred some very knowledgable people to participate with equal quality of information.

I am enjoying this thread very much! Being me, I would have just attacked moving the bolt handle and been done with it. This thread has shown me I don't always have to go full "repairman", which will help me in the future.
 
I don't know what "few things" you did but unless you moved the bolt handle you are no better off. How is removing more material off the receiver going to give you better extraction? It isn't. You are reaching full rotation. You could go a little more [already did which I eluded to earlier in my second post] but you would need to close the bolt a touch to pull it back. If you don't care about the extraction timing but want the rifle to extract, sure change your loads.

There is an old saying that goes like this. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him move his bolt handle forward".

Not sure what your goal is. To do it your way or to learn something or just to stop the current issue any Mac Giver way possible. ??
 
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PEI ROB said:
I don't know what "few things" you did but unless you moved the bolt handle you are no better off. How is removing more material off the receiver going to give you better extraction? It isn't. You are reaching full rotation. You could go a little more [already did which I eluded to earlier in my second post] but you would need to close the bolt a touch to pull it back. If you don't care about the extraction timing but want the rifle to extract, sure change your loads.

There is an old saying that goes like this. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him move his bolt handle forward".

Not sure what your goal is. To do it your way or to learn something or just to stop the current issue any Mac Giver way possible. ??
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Okay, you're not understanding and that's fine but don't get pissy because you feel I haven't done it your way. Below is a picture of the area of issue. You'll have noticed in the first set of photos that there were a couple burrs where the bolt handle was contacting the receiver extraction ramp at the very bottom edge. Please realize this is about a .005" area at best. As you will notice in the photo below, I have attained substantially more contact with the face of the receiver extraction ramp, identified by the burnished area on that flat face (I could circle it for you if you like). This is a DIRECT result of removing material from that fine edge. Part of the issue I was having was the thin 'point-on-point' extraction contact prior to stoning the radius on the very bottom of that receiver cut. The removal of that bit of material allowed more positive contact between the two intended extraction surfaces.

I annealed my cases tonight and have reloaded them and will fire them as soon as I can to prove out that part this dilemma. In the meantime, please refrain from scolding me as though you have the equipment in hand. Once again, I realize it is hard to diagnose like this but for god's sake, there are a few out here who aren't complete boneheads. If you would recall, I stated that I didn't reach full rotation initially, I had to give it a slight bump to get to full rotation. I have come to find out that this was hampered at least partially by the burr. If I find the same hard extraction condition after firing these freshly annealed and resized rounds, yes, I may have to concede to moving the handle forward after all. For now (and this may sound funny coming from an immediate 'worst case scenario' guy like me) I will hack away at this with as few variables at a time as possible.

Not everything is as cut & dried as the textbook dictates. I don't know your experience, PEI ROB, but I'm sure you will understand that there are a few things out there that you may not have encountered before - get off your proverbial horse. You will also understand I'm sure, that you can lead your horse to water but you can't make him see every possible scenario no matter how pretty you might paint the picture. If my descriptions are at fault for this, I'm first in line to take my licks. However, jumping to conclusions based on emotion or pride is not what I wanted to learn here. Save your 'do it my way or I'll pout' attitude for someone else. I do very much appreciate all practical experience here, however :d

Rooster
 
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The issue I think you are having is expected in your scenario not just common. I have never heard of a 700 that had ideal timing. Good for mass production hunting rifles but not ideal. Yes, I have personally relocated 700 bolt handles, no big deal and not rocket science. I have also taken them to my TIG welder to weld via instructions I attained from Dans40x. Dans40x talked, I listened. I had to educate my welder buddy first to be absolutely sure he knew Dan's reasons for the method. Locating is easy, TIG welding them properly is not. It is too much effort on my part to continue TIG welding handles for what it is worth. Not only that but the PT&G handles are not a perfect fit. They need to be modified before hand or the location is settled on as an improvement, not perfection. Then, PT&G wasn't making bolts.

You may be able to be content with adding contact surface area, polishing surfaces and changing the loads. This may improve things to a point where you are happy. Your rifle, your call. Either way, at the end of the day I hope things work out for you. In my opinion you really should relocate the handle for the long term.

Cheers,
Rob
 
Okay, I got my empty brass annealed Sunday night and went to the range today. Shot some newly annealed & loaded, as well as some 'old stock' - ran noticeably better with no hang ups. HOWEVER, I had one piece of Winchester brass in the bunch and it didn't do so well. I use the Winchester brass for practice and has so far performed quite well but it's no Lapua brass.

The neck in my chamber was cut to .317" and most of my loaded brass necks measure, on average, .3127" (turned). Some of the Winchester cases have not been turned - one of these was the one that hung up on extraction. Unturned neck diameters of the ones I sampled showed as much as .3152" (loaded). The one fired today now measures .3159". This may be at least a partial contributor to the issue. I will be turning some more Win. brass tonight to run a test between turned & unturned necks.

I have little doubt by what I've learned here that my bolt handle should be moved for ideal extraction. If I can eliminate all other variables prior to committing to that, I will. I honestly don't know what ideal timing looks like on a 700 but short of lapping the two surfaces together, I'm not sure how much better this one would get. Though it's a narrow contact area (refer to my last photo), there is hard contact for roughly 85% of the length of the receiver extraction ramp. Maybe this is deceiving / misleading and not really knowing what it should look like for best operation, I can't make an educated conclusion. I do know that the contact area on the handle is limited to the front 10% of the extraction angle. This could definitely be rotated axially to achieve more contact. I can't see this as being an easy thing to get perfect. I do realize that this one bit of area is doing all the work - I suppose therein lies the problem...

PEI ROB, thanks for your clarification. You eluded to "polishing surfaces"; to what were you referring? My stoning that sharp edge or is there something else that might help (Band-Aid, solution compared to moving the bolt, I'm sure, but I'm curious anyway).

Thanks all!
Rooster
 
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