Rem 700 extractor upgrade?
- Thread starter HeadDamage
- Start date
Well,one day at the range my 700VS failed to extract not once but very round,it was commercial Winchester ammo,I was apoplectic,what a piece of crap that extractor is,my old L1A1 never let me down.Had to lay into my bolt action friends,so had the bolt machined and Mcmillan extractor installed,problem solved.
winchester_070
Regular
- Location
- North Central BC
I keep hearing about all the Sako style failures , can someone please post some actual failures or refer to lawsuites that have proven that these failures have caused injuries . I have not been able to find any in any of my searches on the inet but would love to read or hear about actual events and not hearsay or someones opinion , not that there is anything wrong with opinions,but sometimes things get carried away and stories get bigger and bigger until there is very little truth left at all . I have 3 bolts that i am considering putting in sako extractors and if they truly are unsafe (proven) then i will have to be reconsidering. 
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
winchester_070 said:I keep hearing about all the Sako style failures , can someone please post some actual failures or refer to lawsuites that have proven that these failures have caused injuries . I have not been able to find any in any of my searches on the inet but would love to read or hear about actual events and not hearsay or someones opinion , not that there is anything wrong with opinions,but sometimes things get carried away and stories get bigger and bigger until there is very little truth left at all . I have 3 bolts that i am considering putting in sako extractors and if they truly are unsafe (proven) then i will have to be reconsidering.
The concept's pretty straight forward... You're screwing with a system in a way the designers never anticipated, and do so at your own risk. It has NOTHING to do with Sako'ized M700's blowing up more, just that IF you have a case failure the problem will likely be exacerbated and potentially very harmful. The M700 extractor isn't my favorite, but it works just fine in my opinion and it's good enough for the US marine core.
The Remington extractor evolved because of the breeching system adopted for the 721/722 series of rifles. To maintain the breeching integrity, an extractor contained entirely within the bolt nose was required. The 700 series is probably the best breeching system developed from the standpoint of protection of the shooter in the event of a catastrophic case failure. The extractor design is a compromise. Total case failures in modern rifles with modern ammunition are rare. This is why lesser breeching systems, or modified extractor installations can be acceptable. For the informed shooter, it is a matter of personal preference. For the gunsmith doing the alteration, there is a major liability issue. In the event of a catastrophic case failure in an unaltered 700, risk to the shooter is minimal. If the Sako pattern extractor has been fitted, there will be high velocity ejection of fragments. You make your choices, and take your chances.
Well I had a chance to poke the brass out of the chamber and had a better look at the extractor and it was not broken. I chunk of brass had come off of the rim and was wedged under the extractor. I've taken the rifle into a smith for some other work anyway as it is due for some TLC but I'm going to stick with the rem extractor for now. A note on the extractor upgrade, the smith said he would do it for me if I wanted the Sako but also he warned me of the safety issue that has been brought up earlier in this post.
winchester_070 said:I keep hearing about all the Sako style failures , can someone please post some actual failures or refer to lawsuites that have proven that these failures have caused injuries . I have not been able to find any in any of my searches on the inet but would love to read or hear about actual events and not hearsay or someones opinion , not that there is anything wrong with opinions,but sometimes things get carried away and stories get bigger and bigger until there is very little truth left at all . I have 3 bolts that i am considering putting in sako extractors and if they truly are unsafe (proven) then i will have to be reconsidering.
If you don't understand that the design of the 700 action is superior to any other mass produced bolt action ever made, and that by installing only part of the extractor system from a Sako completed compromises that design, what does it matter if there have been deaths and injuries? It is not like it happens often..... the alteration does not make it happen. The alteration is completely unsafe when it happens. We are talking about a catastrophic case failure. They do not occur on a regular basis.
If you think a Sako extractor is safe in a Sako so why shouldn't it be safe in a Remington, you are wrong because when people install the Sako extractor in a Remington they do not install the Sako bolt guide, which is the safety design incorporated in the Sako. That bolt guide is there to protect the shooter and anyone close to the shooter if a case fails drastically. I do not understand why anyone would knowingly install only part of the Sako system. If the Sako extractor and the Sako bolt guide were installed then the Remington would be as safe as a Sako. Not as strong and safe as the Remington was before alteration but safe.
After working on so many rifles over so many years and seeing so little problems with the 700 extractors, it really boggles my mind that there have been so many unsafe conversions done... I think it started with the blind leading the blind and the lemmings following. By lemmings I mean the regular shooter who does not have a clue as to what the alteration is doing. They are just doing the conversion without really making an informed decision.
Thankfully case failures are not common.
Following are two old posts from Benchrest Central where this topic has been covered quite some time ago.
jackie schmidt Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003Location: Houston, TexasPosts: 3872
JKob
Yes, I have first hand knowledge of a Sako Extractor in a Remington Bolt imbedding itself in a man’s brain.
It was a unique circumstance. He was a left-handed shooter shooting a 243 Ackley built on a right hand action. One hot day at the range, he was shooting 70-grain bullets with a big dose of 4350. He decided to go to some (about) 100 grainers, but forgot to lower the charge. The case failed, and the Sako Extractor came right up the race way and into his head. It hurt him pretty bad. The case head was literally welded to the bolt face.
I guess that is first hand enough........jackie
Lou Murdica Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003Location: SKY VALLEY CA.Posts: 185
blow out
I had a Remington 40x in a 222 with a Sako extractor conversion have a catastrophic case head failure and blow the extractor out the port, break into pieces when it hit the back of the port and part of it is still in my head. If it was a left port I would be dead. I had glasses on and there was brass pit in them and my face was bleeding all around them. It was not a hot load but just a weak case they say.
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In the early days of conversions of 40X's to 6PPc, there were reasons for the use of Sako extractors. The first reason was that it was relatively easy. The second was, with the relatively thin web of the 220 Russian brass which was commonly used at the time, it was better to reduce the amount of protrusion of the case from the chamber. Using the Sako style extractor would allow this. The third reason is, a Sako extractor is easily replaced when it screws up.
It has also been common to use the Sako style extractor when opening up a Remington bolt from standard to magnum diameter. Again, this is primarily because it is easier than the alternative which is to re-machine for the Remington extractor.
Now to the safety issue. Bolt actions are of basically two types when it comes to the handling of gas from a case failure, sealers and venters.
The Remington 700, along with most push feeds, is a sealer and it is one of the best. When a case fails in a 700 or any of Remington's modern centerfires for that matter, the nose of the bolt expands until it contacts the barrel counterbore. This very effectively seals the chamber and prevents gas from exiting the receiver ring. The only gas which escapes is that which exits via the firing pin hole. This is vented into the left locking lug raceway.
examples of other sealers are the Savage 110, The Sako, and the M70 push feed. Of these, the one that comes closest to equaling the Remington is the Savage. The Savage uses a little sliding extractor which can come adrift but the gases and any hardparts are closed into the receiver ring by the baffle which blocks both raceways. This also is a very effective system and makes the Savage a very strong and safe action.
Many will ask, "If the Sako system is so dangerous, how can Sako use it? Surely there would be Sako extractors flying about constantly."
Well, Sako was apparently well aware of the potential for the extractor to jump ship so they incorporated a block into the design which many mistakenly think of as a guide rail. This rail, which is attached to the bolt via two collars, serves to keep the extractor within the receiver ring when it is blown loose by a failed case.
Venters, which include such actions as the Mauser, the M70, and the Ruger 77 to name three, do as my name for them implies. They vent gas in a , hopefully, safe direction. Some are more successful in this than others. The pre-64 M70 was infamous for it's ability to channel escaping gases up the left locking lug raceway and thence into the shooters eye. The Mauser is much better in this regard as is the Ruger but all have a tendency to vent parts as well as gas. I have seen numerous cases where extractors belonging to these have taken flight. Injuries have, no doubt, taken place but are apparently expected and accepted.
Now to the question at hand. Does the installation of the Sako style extractor compromise the Remington design? You bet. Is this a problem? It can be if you tend to load real hot. If a case fails, there is every possibility the extractor will be blown out. When this happens, there is a pretty good chance it will exit the receiver ring.
I have shot a whole bunch of Remingtons which used Sako extractors. To make matters worse, I shoot left handed and these were right handed rifles. I've never been bothered simply because I've not had a case failure in one of these but it could happen.
The inclusion of a Savage or Sako styled baffle in the conversion would help to make it safer. Intelligent handloading practices can help even more!
The Sako conversion can also compromise function as Dennis pointed out. For this reason it might not be the best idea for use on a hunting rifle.
My bottom line? I'll still shoot them and won't be losing too much sleep over it and will still use them where there is reason to do so when repairing a Remington bolt.
If gunsmiths are too fearful of litigation, they will soon be afraid to do anything other than factory parts replacement and the shooting community will suffer because of it. Regatrds, Bill.
It has also been common to use the Sako style extractor when opening up a Remington bolt from standard to magnum diameter. Again, this is primarily because it is easier than the alternative which is to re-machine for the Remington extractor.
Now to the safety issue. Bolt actions are of basically two types when it comes to the handling of gas from a case failure, sealers and venters.
The Remington 700, along with most push feeds, is a sealer and it is one of the best. When a case fails in a 700 or any of Remington's modern centerfires for that matter, the nose of the bolt expands until it contacts the barrel counterbore. This very effectively seals the chamber and prevents gas from exiting the receiver ring. The only gas which escapes is that which exits via the firing pin hole. This is vented into the left locking lug raceway.
examples of other sealers are the Savage 110, The Sako, and the M70 push feed. Of these, the one that comes closest to equaling the Remington is the Savage. The Savage uses a little sliding extractor which can come adrift but the gases and any hardparts are closed into the receiver ring by the baffle which blocks both raceways. This also is a very effective system and makes the Savage a very strong and safe action.
Many will ask, "If the Sako system is so dangerous, how can Sako use it? Surely there would be Sako extractors flying about constantly."
Well, Sako was apparently well aware of the potential for the extractor to jump ship so they incorporated a block into the design which many mistakenly think of as a guide rail. This rail, which is attached to the bolt via two collars, serves to keep the extractor within the receiver ring when it is blown loose by a failed case.
Venters, which include such actions as the Mauser, the M70, and the Ruger 77 to name three, do as my name for them implies. They vent gas in a , hopefully, safe direction. Some are more successful in this than others. The pre-64 M70 was infamous for it's ability to channel escaping gases up the left locking lug raceway and thence into the shooters eye. The Mauser is much better in this regard as is the Ruger but all have a tendency to vent parts as well as gas. I have seen numerous cases where extractors belonging to these have taken flight. Injuries have, no doubt, taken place but are apparently expected and accepted.
Now to the question at hand. Does the installation of the Sako style extractor compromise the Remington design? You bet. Is this a problem? It can be if you tend to load real hot. If a case fails, there is every possibility the extractor will be blown out. When this happens, there is a pretty good chance it will exit the receiver ring.
I have shot a whole bunch of Remingtons which used Sako extractors. To make matters worse, I shoot left handed and these were right handed rifles. I've never been bothered simply because I've not had a case failure in one of these but it could happen.
The inclusion of a Savage or Sako styled baffle in the conversion would help to make it safer. Intelligent handloading practices can help even more!
The Sako conversion can also compromise function as Dennis pointed out. For this reason it might not be the best idea for use on a hunting rifle.
My bottom line? I'll still shoot them and won't be losing too much sleep over it and will still use them where there is reason to do so when repairing a Remington bolt.
If gunsmiths are too fearful of litigation, they will soon be afraid to do anything other than factory parts replacement and the shooting community will suffer because of it. Regatrds, Bill.
winchester_070
Regular
- Location
- North Central BC
Excellent information especially by Guntech and Leeper ....
I'm with Dennis and Leeper on this one. They have explained the safety, design, engineering side well enough to warn us.
I'm siding with them since I'm on a "cheapo" budget and I prefer to keep everything stock.... especially my M14 trigger sear(s) !!
Like the "ING Bank" advertisement says...... Save your money !
Cheers,
Barney
I'm siding with them since I'm on a "cheapo" budget and I prefer to keep everything stock.... especially my M14 trigger sear(s) !!
Like the "ING Bank" advertisement says...... Save your money !
Cheers,
Barney
being a remington kinda guy, i read this post from start to finish a couple of times
am i reading this correct
who would do this so called "upgrade"
both sides state that each problem is a very rare occurence, so hypothetically speaking the choices are either a failure to eject a shell, or a piece of steel smacking you in the face at extreme velocity
i've never had an ejection failure in any of my bolt guns, so what does clearing it entail?
no matter what, it can't be as bad as having a piece of steel removed from your skull can it?
am i reading this correct
who would do this so called "upgrade"
both sides state that each problem is a very rare occurence, so hypothetically speaking the choices are either a failure to eject a shell, or a piece of steel smacking you in the face at extreme velocity
i've never had an ejection failure in any of my bolt guns, so what does clearing it entail?
no matter what, it can't be as bad as having a piece of steel removed from your skull can it?
