rem 870, mossberg 500, or maverick 88 for newer hunter

Agreed. The 835 would be my first choice with regards to the pumps listed by the OP. The overbored barrel of the 835 throws excellent shot patterns that I doubt will be matched by any other pump shotgun mentioned on this thread.[/QUOTE 1963 beretta ]

Just courious 1963 beretta have you ever owned one??. Of all the shotguns I have owned nothing has pounded me harder than a 835 and that includes all 10ga I have owned. They don't fit most, love to rattle, and forget about smooth cycling. Pretty much as rough as one can get.
Other members have voiced the same with respect to recoil and the safety sticking, and the gun jamming is common with heavy loads
Mine mind you was the 1st year they came out I bought one new but I don't think they have changed
Cheers

To the OP pick up a good 870 wingmaster and with a little maintenance you will have it to pass on to the next generation
I have my first one I bought new in 1965 and it is like the day I bought it and smooth as silk with 1000's of rounds through it and never an issue
Not many people a wingmaster doesn't fit right
The mossy 500 is a good working gun also
Cheers
 
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Agreed. The 835 would be my first choice with regards to the pumps listed by the OP. The overbored barrel of the 835 throws excellent shot patterns that I doubt will be matched by any other pump shotgun mentioned on this thread.[/QUOTE 1963 beretta ]

Just courious 1963 beretta have you ever owned one??. Of all the shotguns I have owned nothing has pounded me harder than a 835 and that includes all 10ga I have owned. They don't fit most, love to rattle, and forget about smooth cycling. Pretty much as rough as one can get.
Other members have voiced the same with respect to recoil and the safety sticking, and the gun jamming is common with heavy loads
Mine mind you was the 1st year they came out I bought one new but I don't think they have changed
Cheers

To the OP pick up a good 870 wingmaster and with a little maintenance you will have it to pass on to the next generation
I have my first one I bought new in 1965 and it is like the day I bought it and smooth as silk with 1000's of rounds through it and never an issue
Not many people a wingmaster doesn't fit right
The mossy 500 is a good working gun also
Cheers

Yes, I have owned one...replaced it with a 935 as I prefer semi's. Yes recoil was substantial when shooting 3.5" shells, but i didnt notice a difference between other similar fixed breech guns when shooting 2 3/4" or 3" shells. The 935's recoil is way better as its a gas operated autoloader, and after a limbsaver pad and kicks high flyer choke was installed, the recoil is nothing to have a conversation about. I suspect that the same recoil pad and choke combination installed on the 835 would help substantially when shooting 3.5" shells. Either way, the 835/935 shot patterns are next to impossible to beat, so as long as gun fit is proper, the 835 would get my vote. If I was to spend the cash for a wingmaster, I'd much rather invest that cash in a Browning BPS. Much better buy in my opinion.
 
Yes, I have owned one...replaced it with a 935 as I prefer semi's. Yes recoil was substantial when shooting 3.5" shells, but i didnt notice a difference between other similar fixed breech guns when shooting 2 3/4" or 3" shells. The 935's recoil is way better as its a gas operated autoloader, and after a limbsaver pad and kicks high flyer choke was installed, the recoil is nothing to have a conversation about. I suspect that the same recoil pad and choke combination installed on the 835 would help substantially when shooting 3.5" shells. Either way, the 835/935 shot patterns are next to impossible to beat, so as long as gun fit is proper, the 835 would get my vote. If I was to spend the cash for a wingmaster, I'd much rather invest that cash in a Browning BPS. Much better buy in my opinion.

835 to a 935?? I thought with a handle like 1963beretta you many own some quality shotguns :) and Yes any semi is better than any pump in the recoil department. Next to to impossible patterns that is a funny one
Few will agree with that marketing hype. Many smiths have written about the over boring over the years and came to the same conclusion . One example
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_mysteries.htm

A bps over a wingmaster not for me if I had to own just one and yes I own full sets of both now minus the 10ga bps which I sold on the EE . I also still have pretty much an example of most makes and models of pump/ semi shotguns but the only mossy still in the stall is a 500 cause it works just fine but did buy and try the others over the years as I normally do with any new pump or semi that comes out yes even a 935 which would not cycle target loads but worked fine otherwise, a 9200 which fell apart and split a bolt on the skeet field, etc etc and a 535 which worked Ok but rattled like crazy and cycled like it was full of gravel to name a few all now sold off

Guess I am being hard on them but when I compare them to one of my old wingmasters, model 31's, model 12 or ithaca's they have a long way to go in my opinion

Bps yes I agree are good guns but they don't fit most as well as a wingmaster does nor can one afford parts for them if required or extra barrels if you later want one vs a 870
To each their own I guess

Cheers
 
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835 to a 935?? I thought with a handle like 1963beretta you many own some quality shotguns :) and Yes any semi is better than any pump in the recoil department. Next to to impossible patterns that is a funny one
Few will agree with that marketing hype. Many smiths have written about the over boring over the years and came to the same conclusion . One example
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_mysteries.htm

A bps over a wingmaster not for me if I had to own just one and yes I own full sets of both now minus the 10ga bps which I sold on the EE . I also still have pretty much an example of most makes and models of pump/ semi shotguns but the only mossy still in the stall is a 500 cause it works just fine but did buy and try the others over the years as I normally do with any new pump or semi that comes out yes even a 935 which would not cycle target loads but worked fine otherwise, a 9200 which fell apart and split a bolt on the skeet field, etc etc and a 535 which worked Ok but rattled like crazy and cycled like it was full of gravel to name a few all now sold off

Guess I am being hard on them but when I compare them to one of my old wingmasters, model 31's, model 12 or ithaca's they have a long way to go in my opinion

Bps yes I agree are good guns but they don't fit most as well as a wingmaster does nor can one afford parts for them if required or extra barrels if you later want one vs a 870
To each their own I guess

Cheers

I do own own many quality guns, but my duck/turkey gun is my Mossberg 935. Works flawless and doesnt have any issues cycling any loads i put in it, including target loads.
As far as my statement about patterns, Im not repeating something I've heard or falling for some marketing tactic. Im basing my opinion on personal experience with my own firearms. None of my current Brownings, Beretta's, Franchi's or any other gun i have owned in my lifetime have been able to match shot patterns with my old 835 and my current 935.
And im not saying a 870 wingmaster isnt a quality gun. What I'm saying is that for the price, I'd rather have a Browning BPS because i know Browning guns fit me better and i personally think its a much better pump shotgun.
 
None of my current Brownings, Beretta's, Franchi's or any other gun i have owned in my lifetime have been able to match shot patterns with my old 835 and my current 935.
.

This has been my experience as well with my 935, I've shot over 250 steel shot patterns with different guns over the past few years and the 935 usually comes out on top.
Over boring does make a difference with steel shot patterns, if it didn't, manufacturer's wouldn't be increasing the bore diameter on their waterfowl guns.

No other gun Ive patterned will do this with BBBs at 40 yards, 89%
 
This back boring is nothing new it was first pushed here in the 50's in the k-32's and even back as far as the early 1900's in europe
A smith on another forum explained it simple to us why you see the patterns you are seeing
have to run will talk later
Cheers
The reason some people see tighter patterns after getting their barrels averboard as an aftermarket feature is because they use the same chokes as before. By opening up the bore you are essentially making the constriction difference between the bore and choke larger. So a bore ID of .730" with a choke that is .720" has .10". Now you go and overbore the barrel to .742" and use the same choke you know have .22" of constriction.
 
if you shot the 1 3/8oz BBBs out of a .730 bore using the same constriction choke you'd a have blown pattern. likely swell your choke to due to shot bridging.
If you shot it with a cyl choke you might have better results, imo.
 
This has been my experience as well with my 935, I've shot over 250 steel shot patterns with different guns over the past few years and the 935 usually comes out on top.
Over boring does make a difference with steel shot patterns, if it didn't, manufacturer's wouldn't be increasing the bore diameter on their waterfowl guns.

No other gun Ive patterned will do this with BBBs at 40 yards, 89%

Agreed! I have had the same results. Have you ever tried to pattern T or buckshot? You'll be impressed my friend! I usually shoot BBB and T when pass shooting at Canada's and they are devasting. While I dont like pass shooting beyond 40-50 (max) yards, I have zero doubt that I would obtain clean kills beyond 50. I dropped a Greater Canada last year with a head shot at roughly 55-60 yards using 3.5" T's and it was when I went to retrieve the dead bird that I realized that more then half of that birds head was missing. Fine, large shot size = large holes. But what impressed me was that there were roughly 8-10 additional pellets in its neck and only 2 holes in the rest of its body. So assuming my lead was close to being on point, the shot density increase within the 1 foot between the tip of the beak and the upper breast was devasting enough to almost completely disintegrate a goose's head at what I consider to be a very long range shot on the fly. It would lead me to believe that the overbored barrel shortened the shot string, and thus putting more pellets on the target in less time. Lucky shot? Of course! I'm not one to usually take those long shots as I would likely miss 9 of 10 of them. But thats not the guns fault, just the operators ability. And on paper, 89-90% is a common place for me as well.

The reason some people see tighter patterns after getting their barrels averboard as an aftermarket feature is because they use the same chokes as before. By opening up the bore you are essentially making the constriction difference between the bore and choke larger. So a bore ID of .730" with a choke that is .720" has .10". Now you go and overbore the barrel to .742" and use the same choke you know have .22" of constriction.

Sounds like its working to me! Although I'm interested in seeing this article you mentioned to understand the logic and physics behind the reasons, I'm more liable to believe what I have personally experienced first hand. My Browning has a .742" backbored barrel and I noticed marginally better shot patterns over some of my other 12g guns that have the nominal .729" bore using the same choke constrictions. The Mossberg 835/935 has a .775" overbored barrel which is the same nominal bore diameter of a 10g. And as mentioned, shot patterns continued to improve with the oversized diameter....again, using the same choke constrictions.
 
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Sounds like its working to me! Although I'm interested in seeing this article you mentioned to understand the logic and physics behind the reasons, I'm more liable to believe what I have personally experienced first hand. My Browning has a .742" backbored barrel and I noticed marginally better shot patterns over some of my other 12g guns that have the nominal .729" bore using the same choke constrictions. The Mossberg 835/935 has a .775" overbored barrel which is the same nominal bore diameter of a 10g. And as mentioned, shot patterns continued to improve with the oversized diameter....again, using the same choke constrictions.

Here is one write up I kept on file. I will find the other the next rainy day. Have to make hay when the sun is shining especially this year
Cheers
I wish it were that simple. First there is no way to increase "center mass" of a shotshell charge. That's a mathematical fact, and the goal of doing so is sort of the fool's goal of the shotgun world.

As far as the benefits of backboring, for every person that thinks that it is the cat's meow, there is another that thinks it is total bunkum--

Here is what Bruce Buck, a noted shotgun writer on technical matters said in 1995:

4) Backboring: The nominal interior diameter of a 12 gauge
shotgun barrel is .729", but your barrel could measure anything from
.720" to .800" and still handle a 12 gauge shell. Anything bigger than
.729" is technically overbore or backbored. Stan Baker, Seattle
gunsmith, claims to have coined the term "backbore" in order to avoid
the less attractive connotation of "overbore". They mean the same thing.

The Technoid, in one of his denser moments, had some guns
backbored in an attempt to reduce recoil. It did not work and should not
have come as a surprise. If you look at the formula for free recoil, bore
size is not one of the components. From a purely subjective (not
mathematical) point of view, it also failed to lower the recoil sensation
the way that elongating the cones did. Don't know why.

In theory, backboring decreases friction and provides a larger
wad base for the powder gases to push upon. Both of these should
increase velocity and they may to a slight extent. Stan Baker claimed
that his extreme and maximum .800" Big Bore barrels added 50 fps.
Even so, normal shell to shell factory variation is 30 fps, so the most
extreme backboring does not really affect velocity for all practical
purposes.

Very often when people have guns backbored, they also run the
cones out and may also have the gun ported. When everything is done
at once it is impossible to tell if one particular change had a measurable
effect. Subjective recoil reduction caused by elongated cones is often
attributed to backboring or porting.

Instead of decreasing recoil, aftermarket backboring actually
increases it because the weight of the gun is reduced by the amount of
metal removed and ejecta velocity may be increased slightly. Gun
weight and ejecta velocity are important components of the recoil
formula.

There is a big difference between "aftermarket" backboring and
"factory" backbored new guns. The factory backbored barrels are
actually a little heavier because wall thickness is maintained while barrel
diameter is increased. There is more metal. If you want an example of
road hugging weight brought on by factory "backboring", try to swing a
new Browning 425 Ultra with 32" barrels.

Large bores may help slightly when using extremely heavy
hunting loads, but there is no proven meaningful change in velocity or
recoil with standard target loads. The aforementioned Australian tests
found that backboring neither meaningfully increased velocity nor
consistently improved patterns. Sorry folks, factory "backboring" is just
another marketing ploy to go along with barrel porting.

Does aftermarket (not factory) backboring have any benefit at all?
You can bet your Junior Technoid magic slide rule ring that it does.
While aftermarket backboring may not reduce recoil or improve patterns,
it sure reduces weight. If the barrels on your gun feel too heavy and
unresponsive, you may be able to put them on a diet. Most standard
barrels have a wall thickness of around .040". This is a lot of meat and
might be substantially reduced. On a standard 30" set of barrels,
backboring .010" will reduce barrel weight by 2.77 ounces. A .020
backbore will take off a monumental 5.58 ounces. A change of 3 ounces
is a lot, so go easy. Check first with your gunsmith. He will know
what is safe. Be aware, however, that aftermarket backboring will void
any factory warrantee. Briley charges about $150 per tube for
backboring.

Good news/bad news. Backboring works well to reduce the
weight of solid choke barrels. Unfortunately, solid choked barrels are
usually pretty well balanced and seldom need it. It is the factory screw
choke barrels that are usually too loady up front, especially the 32" jobs.
A backbore of 3 to 4 ounces could transform these guns from pigs to
peacocks. That is the good news. The bad news is that Briley does not
want to hear about backboring a gun with factory screw chokes. Now
you know how Tantalus felt when the Greek gods kept the water and
grapes just out of reach. The problem is that enlargement of the bore
may cause the skirt of the unaltered choke tube to intrude into the bore
itself. This would cause the choke to be added to the ejecta on the first
shot! Bad move.

Though Briley will not touch your screw choked Beretta or 425,
Ken Eyster and several other custom gunsmiths may still be willing to
backbore a screw choked gun. Whatever you do, make sure your
backboring is done by a pro
.

Randy Wakeman, "Why Backboring does not Work",
http://www.chuckhawks.com/backboring_does_not_work.htm

Backboring (overbore and underbore barrels) have been experimented with for a long time. It was around 75 years ago that the 12 gauge "3 inch magnum" shell was developed. Shotgun barrel bores were intentionally opened up to the British maximum of .750 in. at that time, with the press back in the day bragging of the lower recoil and better patterning that was observed.

They had it right, but only half right. Anytime a shotgun barrel is increased in inside diameter with the exact same shotshell, both pressure and velocity are reduced due to the increased barrel volume. There is less recoil, but only because muzzle velocity drops. Pattern densities may often improve, but again due primarily to lower velocities that deform less lead shot on initial setback. You can accomplish the same in any shotgun by lowering the muzzle velocity, all other things remaining constant.

That why touting "backboring" remains one of the pet rocks of shotgunning today. The real reason to backbore is to pull weight out of a heavy set of barrels. Any other significant "benefits" were disproved well over half a century ago.



More highly technical discussion:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=130741&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

At the end of the day, you find that the only true money shooters in the shotgun world, live pigeon shooters, do not have their guns backbored or overbored. These are guys who would gladly sell a testicle for one more (real live) bird.

Most to the top trapshooters do not have their guns backbored. These are the second tier money shooters.
 
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Interesting info 3macs1. Id like to say I believe all the research done by these experts, because they know way more then I do. But Im a "proof is in the pudding" kind of person. I've patterned everything from Browning's to Beretta's and Benelli's to Baikal's.....and many other manufacturers that dont happen to start with the letter "B". I have yet to find a gun in 12 gauge that could throw a better pattern then the 835/935. The only gun I have personally seen first hand pattern better then my mossy's was a 10g Browning Gold.
 
Interesting info 3macs1. Id like to say I believe all the research done by these experts, because they know way more then I do. But Im a "proof is in the pudding" kind of person. I've patterned everything from Browning's to Beretta's and Benelli's to Baikal's.....and many other manufacturers that dont happen to start with the letter "B". I have yet to find a gun in 12 gauge that could throw a better pattern then the 835/935. The only gun I have personally seen first hand pattern better then my mossy's was a 10g Browning Gold.

Understand but you don't reload steel either I bet which I forgot in all of this. That is the big difference between us and what we see on the pattern boards with all of these guns I would say
I have to admit I am totally out of touch with what today's factory loads will do with factory chokes in B guns but know what they did when I started reloading which is why I have
For about 10 plus years now the patterns I can acheive in all of my B guns which include two 10ga and two 12ga 3 1/2 golds and mainly briley chokes are as good mostly better than any factory 835/935 would do with factory ammo
Here is one for you. Both of my 10ga or both 12ga (both pairs are identical other than one camo and one black) with the exact chokes and exact loads pattern quite a bit different, Could never figure that one out other than I see why it is so important to pattern YOUR gun
I use steel powder and sam1 unslit wads and buffer many. I guess 89% is good but very easy to obtain when you roll your own and I guess being an old skeet shooter trying to acheive no holes that a target could squeeze through even though they are hunting loads
I remember when I first started and didnot cut the wads back far enough creating a form of slug I guess one would call it at 40 yards and that was with n0.1 and BB sticking the wad in the board many times until I got it right
The rsi duplex high speed loads with a briley diana IM choke in my B guns is hard to beat and that is right up to TT which is the largest steel I use.
My favorite is BBB over BB
Cheers
 
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Understand but you don't reload steel either I bet which I forgot in all of this. That is the big difference between us and what we see on the pattern boards with all of these guns I would say
I have to admit I am totally out of touch with what today's factory loads will do with factory chokes in B guns but know what they did when I started reloading which is why I have
For about 10 plus years now the patterns I can acheive in all of my B guns which include two 10ga and two 12ga 3 1/2 golds and mainly briley chokes are as good mostly better than any factory 835/935 would do with factory ammo
Here is one for you. Both of my 10ga or both 12ga (both pairs are identical other than one camo and one black) with the exact chokes and exact loads pattern quite a bit different, Could never figure that one out other than I see why it is so important to pattern YOUR gun
I use steel powder and sam1 unslit wads and buffer many. I guess 89% is good but very easy to obtain when you roll your own and I guess being an old skeet shooter trying to acheive no holes that a target could squeeze through even though they are hunting loads
I remember when I first started and didnot cut the wads back far enough creating a form of slug I guess one would call it at 40 yards and that was with n0.1 and BB sticking the wad in the board many times until I got it right
The rsi duplex high speed loads with a briley diana IM choke in my B guns is hard to beat and that is right up to TT which is the largest steel I use.
My favorite is BBB over BB
Cheers

You are correct in saying that I dont reload my own shells. Maybe something to try out and test. I've always used factory loads in all the guns i've patterned. In fact, I always keep all variables equal when comparing patterns so that its an accurate apple to apple comparison. If hand reloads have improved your patterns, one can only imagine that the results would also improve on a 835/935
 
You are correct in saying that I dont reload my own shells. Maybe something to try out and test. I've always used factory loads in all the guns i've patterned. In fact, I always keep all variables equal when comparing patterns so that its an accurate apple to apple comparison. If hand reloads have improved your patterns, one can only imagine that the results would also improve on a 835/935

I only used reloads on the 835/935 so have no idea how it improved them over factory but do know they patterned no better than any B gun with the right choke/ load combination. Also use a lot of lead in the 835 plus steel Still call it the MULE. Never owned another shotgun that kicked like that thing and a big reason why I suggested a 870 wingmaster to the OP
Cheers
 
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All three of those shotguns listed by the O.P. will work just fine. Just spend some time beforehand practicing with it so you know where it hits.

gumbellion, I've been told that a shotgun barrel can be fairly easily massaged to bring it back in line.
 
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This has been my experience as well with my 935, I've shot over 250 steel shot patterns with different guns over the past few years and the 935 usually comes out on top.
Over boring does make a difference with steel shot patterns, if it didn't, manufacturer's wouldn't be increasing the bore diameter on their waterfowl guns.

No other gun Ive patterned will do this with BBBs at 40 yards, 89%

Restarting a dying thread. While I dont have a picture of a shot pattern test of my 935 at the moment, here is a photo similar to what I mentioned in one of my previous post. This time the casualty was a wood duck. This bird was shot flying upward and away from behind. The shot was made between 20-25 yards. The ammunition being used was 2 3/4" winchester xpert, 1 1/16oz, #4 shot and the choke was a modified kicks high flyer. Not a single pellet penetrated the bird below the neck. Devastating hits like this are common on my 935 at these distances, and never occured on any other gun that I own. Its things like this that make me believe that the over-bored barrel does make a difference and the shorter shot strings on the 935 speak volumes
3FF111B4-1EF6-4598-93DF-97CC4441FC67_zpsmaaszexn.jpg
 
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