Remington .308 What Do You Think?

If you don't have your heart set on Rem consider a NEW Savage.

They are adding alum chassis to all their tupperwear stock - YEAH!!! A company has heard our screams of horror. Will likely start up for 2009. Maybe even in time for hunting season this year :)

Now you get an Accutrigger, Det Center feed mag that runs smooth, a decent stock, a usually sub MOA pipe all for around $600. Rifle should weigh around 7lbs without optics. That is plenty for your hunting needs.

For accuracy, get a quality aftermarket prethreaded/chambered pipe in whatever cal floats your boat. Even get a more appropriate stock - target, BR, Tactical, whatever.

You can now swap between these two extremes and still be UNDER your factory rifle price ($1600 although I think you can do much better).

OR, you can pick up a HS stocked 10FP for under $1000 and live happily ever after. I think these are around 10lbs w/o optics. A very nice field/tactical stock and they even come with the det mag right now!

Jerry
 
I would agree with you about 4.5. Geez to try to find an animal quick is murder in the bush. Why I dont buy Bushnell's with firefly instead of Luep, zeiss and nightforce is pure macho idiocy. The scope that I was happiest with was a 3200 on a 30-06.

I just realized there's a whole other forum called Hunting and Sporting Arms. The fact that we're talking about plastic stocks and Bushnells is a thread jack and therefore should be moved unless we're actually talking about precision firearms.

The fact that you put a Bushnell in the same sentence as Nightforce is idiocy. Before I wised up and spend hard earned money on good glass I spent hard earned money sending Bushnells and Tascos (Tachos) back to the manufacturer for replacements. I'll never make that mistake again. You probably tap your scope after turning the knobs too because your old man showed you like my old man use to. I shake my head at those days. Repeatable turrets are worth their weight in gold.
I think I still have a brand new Bushnell 3-9x40 I'll sell you for cheap because that's exactly what they are. If you need a Bushnell spotting scope to go with your kit, $50 plus shipping will get it to your door. It also comes with a molded plastic case. What a deal.
 
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If you don't have your heart set on Rem consider a NEW Savage.

They are adding alum chassis to all their tupperwear stock - YEAH!!! A company has heard our screams of horror. Will likely start up for 2009. Maybe even in time for hunting season this year :)

Now you get an Accutrigger, Det Center feed mag that runs smooth, a decent stock, a usually sub MOA pipe all for around $600. Rifle should weigh around 7lbs without optics. That is plenty for your hunting needs.

For accuracy, get a quality aftermarket prethreaded/chambered pipe in whatever cal floats your boat. Even get a more appropriate stock - target, BR, Tactical, whatever.

You can now swap between these two extremes and still be UNDER your factory rifle price ($1600 although I think you can do much better).

OR, you can pick up a HS stocked 10FP for under $1000 and live happily ever after. I think these are around 10lbs w/o optics. A very nice field/tactical stock and they even come with the det mag right now!

Jerry
Ya that sounds pretty good i'll do some research on that, thanks,,,,
 
You are entirely correct. Im not a long range tac shooter. This would not suffice for precision or tactical. It would only be for in the bush to get off a quick shot. I have no Bushnell scopes and in what I have I seem to be happy with the Zeiss to get off a quick shot. The Bushnell firefly option does enable a quick snap shot. I wouldnt send scopes back I would just throw them out lol. Im not sure if the 700 tac is actually worthy enough to be considered a tac wepon either and that was my point. I will use it for hunting but I wont enter any shooting contests with it lol.

I just realized there's a whole other forum called Hunting and Sporting Arms. The fact that we're talking about plastic stocks and Bushnells is a thread jack and therefore should be moved unless we're actually talking about precision firearms.

The fact that you put a Bushnell in the same sentence as Nightforce is idiocy. Before I wised up and spend hard earned money on good glass I spent hard earned money sending Bushnells and Tascos (Tachos) back to the manufacturer for replacements. I'll never make that mistake again. You probably tap your scope after turning the knobs too because your old man showed you like my old man use to. I shake my head at those days. Repeatable turrets are worth their weight in gold.
I think I still have a brand new Bushnell 3-9x40 I'll sell you for cheap because that's exactly what they are. If you need a Bushnell spotting scope to go with your kit, $50 plus shipping will get it to your door. It also comes with a molded plastic case. What a deal.
 
Can you inform me what are the most accurate Savage's?
If you don't have your heart set on Rem consider a NEW Savage.

They are adding alum chassis to all their tupperwear stock - YEAH!!! A company has heard our screams of horror. Will likely start up for 2009. Maybe even in time for hunting season this year :)

Now you get an Accutrigger, Det Center feed mag that runs smooth, a decent stock, a usually sub MOA pipe all for around $600. Rifle should weigh around 7lbs without optics. That is plenty for your hunting needs.

For accuracy, get a quality aftermarket prethreaded/chambered pipe in whatever cal floats your boat. Even get a more appropriate stock - target, BR, Tactical, whatever.

You can now swap between these two extremes and still be UNDER your factory rifle price ($1600 although I think you can do much better).

OR, you can pick up a HS stocked 10FP for under $1000 and live happily ever after. I think these are around 10lbs w/o optics. A very nice field/tactical stock and they even come with the det mag right now!

Jerry
 
Certainly a person should get as much utility from his rifle as possible. The investment is large, and we like to see a return on our investments. Perhaps though in this case it begs the question, “What is it for?” You describe a target rifle, but your need, from what you say, is that of a general purpose rifle. I have carried heavy rifles in the field, and anyone wishing to do so is free to cowboy up. My preference is to keep the weight well under 10 pounds, and if I can manage it, under 8. The fact of the matter is that fatigue is not your friend. It messes with your alertness and your ability to move naturally. It also interferes with your ability to shoot well, which was the point of purchasing the rifle in the first place. Heavy, super accurate rifles are great fun to test on the range, but in the quest for big game, you are interested in marksmanship rather than the search for precision.

Precision is commonly associated with barrel weight, but it is not necessarily so. Accuracy is a function of small tolerances working together to produce consistency. A light whippy barrel can be an accurate shooter provided that the barrel is pointing to exactly the same point each time the bullet exits the muzzle. For this reason the ammunition for the light barreled rifle must be very uniform. While the light barreled rifle is unlikely to shoot a large group as well, in the same amount of time, as the rifle with a heavy barrel of equal quality, the first bullet out of the pipe can be placed just as accurately with respect to the aiming point, given suitable ammunition. A light contour short barrel can be as stiff and as accurate as the long heavy contour

barrel. If the bore surfaces share the same precision and finish, then the light barrel is the equal of the heavy barrel.

A low or medium power scope is not automatically inferior to a large scope. To the contrary, if you have the cash to layout for a S&B or Swarovski hunting scope, you should be getting a top quality product, that has better seals and repeatable adjustments that will outlast the owner. Due to it’s smaller size, the hunting scope is more useful on a hunting rifle than a high power target or tactical scope. The benefits of a larger range of adjustment made possible by a 34mm tube will not be realized by the average hunter. The human eye can only make use of so much light, so a 50 mm objective only increases the difficulty of a good cheek weld on a non-adjustable stock. The advantage of the scope is not magnification. The advantage is that the target and the aiming point appear on the same focal plain when viewed through the scope. Magnification is only to aid us in seeing the target. A given amount of magnification is only useful under the correct conditions. There are times when 4X is too much and other times when 20X is not, regardless of the optical quality.
 
Certainly a person should get as much utility from his rifle as possible. The investment is large, and we like to see a return on our investments. Perhaps though in this case it begs the question, “What is it for?” You describe a target rifle, but your need, from what you say, is that of a general purpose rifle. I have carried heavy rifles in the field, and anyone wishing to do so is free to cowboy up. My preference is to keep the weight well under 10 pounds, and if I can manage it, under 8. The fact of the matter is that fatigue is not your friend. It messes with your alertness and your ability to move naturally. It also interferes with your ability to shoot well, which was the point of purchasing the rifle in the first place. Heavy, super accurate rifles are great fun to test on the range, but in the quest for big game, you are interested in marksmanship rather than the search for precision.

Precision is commonly associated with barrel weight, but it is not necessarily so. Accuracy is a function of small tolerances working together to produce consistency. A light whippy barrel can be an accurate shooter provided that the barrel is pointing to exactly the same point each time the bullet exits the muzzle. For this reason the ammunition for the light barreled rifle must be very uniform. While the light barreled rifle is unlikely to shoot a large group as well, in the same amount of time, as the rifle with a heavy barrel of equal quality, the first bullet out of the pipe can be placed just as accurately with respect to the aiming point, given suitable ammunition. A light contour short barrel can be as stiff and as accurate as the long heavy contour

barrel. If the bore surfaces share the same precision and finish, then the light barrel is the equal of the heavy barrel.

A low or medium power scope is not automatically inferior to a large scope. To the contrary, if you have the cash to layout for a S&B or Swarovski hunting scope, you should be getting a top quality product, that has better seals and repeatable adjustments that will outlast the owner. Due to it’s smaller size, the hunting scope is more useful on a hunting rifle than a high power target or tactical scope. The benefits of a larger range of adjustment made possible by a 34mm tube will not be realized by the average hunter. The human eye can only make use of so much light, so a 50 mm objective only increases the difficulty of a good cheek weld on a non-adjustable stock. The advantage of the scope is not magnification. The advantage is that the target and the aiming point appear on the same focal plain when viewed through the scope. Magnification is only to aid us in seeing the target. A given amount of magnification is only useful under the correct conditions. There are times when 4X is too much and other times when 20X is not, regardless of the optical quality.

WHen I say I'm not trying to pick a fight or argue with what you say, please take it as a debate rather then the other but I'm going to have to disagree with just about everything you just said.

More times then not, a lighter rifle is shot less accurately then a heavier rifle largely because a lighter rifle will respond to every tiny movement your body makes. for example, Glock handgun vs 1911 45ACP. Can they both be shot accurately yes. Does the 45 handle better based on it's weight? Yes
As for light countour barrels, barrel whip plays a huge role with a lot of the big boomers and for that accuracy falls off. A short barreled light contour barrel will have more ridgitity but it's rare you find a 16" light contour bbl.

Stock choice plays a huge roll in making the point in the same direction every time. If you can flex the front stock and touch either side of your barrel, guess what happens when you pull the trigger?

As for scopes, again, you get what you pay for. I've sold scopes to guys that don't want anything more then a 1-4x but they want quality and lots of light gathering ability so they get good glass USO, Leupold, Nightforce (2.5-10x24)
If someone came to me and wanted a bush scope as well as a target scope, I'd have to recommend either the Nightforce 3.5-15x50mm or better yet and 5.5-22x50mm.
From what you buy, will direct you a little more as to where you hunt as well. You get good with what you practice with and if sight aquisition at close range is your weak points, then practice.
Like I said, your style of hunting changes based on the type of gun you have or vice versa. If I'm in the bush and it's thick, use a shotgun. Why walk in there with a 300WM when you can almost reach out and touch the animal. In that case, open sights are your friend.
If you scope up with a little heavier gun and you've got a 3.5-15 or 5.5-22, you're going to position yourself beside a game trail maybe 100yds or so out of the bush along a fence line where you've got a great field of view.

As for not being able to get behind a 50mm objective vs a 40mm abjective. This is the old way of thinking that the reticle has to be as close to the bore as possible. Things have changed. If the gun doesn't have an adjustable cheek rest, I'll suggest a 50mm objective in a heart beat but I'll also install the scope so that the individual feels comfortable behind the rifle with a natural sight picture through the scope and this is very easily doable.
Things you pay for in a more expensive scope are things like reticles that mean something. An MOA reticle has got to be the most practicle reticle on the planet unless you have MIL rad turrets in which case a mil rad reticle would make sense. Without reference marks in the scope, you can't accurately hold over, you can't correct properly, chances are you don't have repeatable turrets. Also too, none tactical scopes don't have the total minutes of elevation or windage needed to make proper use of the scope in long range applications. Ziess come to mind. Great glass, limited elevation. Theres a lot more to getting a good quality scope then just the name. Also too, once you buy a good quality scope,
 
I hope you are not including such scopes as the Elite 4200 and 6500 in that comment?

Chev makes everything from the Corvette to the Chevette.

Not all Chevs are crap...

Jerry

Jerry I have to agree with you, not ALL Chevies can be lumped together but for the money you pay for an Elite 4200 or 6500 for what you're trying to accomplish, for the cost benefit, I'd probably still spend the little extra and buy a Nightforce for the reticle and total MOA of adjustment. Don't get me wrong I like the new corvette but for similar money, I'd still go new BMW M3. I think you'd agree.
 
Jerry I have to agree with you, not ALL Chevies can be lumped together but for the money you pay for an Elite 4200 or 6500 for what you're trying to accomplish, for the cost benefit, I'd probably still spend the little extra and buy a Nightforce for the reticle and total MOA of adjustment. Don't get me wrong I like the new corvette but for similar money, I'd still go new BMW M3. I think you'd agree.
I have a new style corvette and the fit and finish is just like a Chevette.You also have to send it to same shop for repairs as a Chevette:)
 
Can you inform me what are the most accurate Savage's?

All Savage and Stevens rifles shoot well. Just pick the one you like, bed the action, free float the pipe and load ammo it likes. Odds are it will be sub MOA with a good potential to shoot around 1/2 MOA.

Glock, the difference in price between the Elites and NF is significant - double in most cases. So more like comparing Vettes/M3's to 911's.

For better reticle choice, more elevation adjustment (but is it utilized by 90% of the owners?), it is a huge price to pay. I think you know how picky I am with optical glass and the NF is not the end all.

Pretty much the same as the Elites as they are/were made by the same Japanese house.

The New Sightron SIII LR scopes have amazing glass (yes, speaking from first hand experience) and are also priced significantly less then the NF. Again, very few reticle choices but they do have mil dot and target dot. They come with gobs of elevation and windage adjustment.

I think these new Sightrons are not far behind the S&B's for optical quality. Yeah, they are amazing.

NF has a very strong following and has worked well in the field and in competition, but others are now chopping at its heels with equal/better performance for substantially less money.

Top optics are getting cheaper.

Jerry
 
WHen I say I'm not trying to pick a fight or argue with what you say, please take it as a debate rather then the other but I'm going to have to disagree with just about everything you just said.

More times then not, a lighter rifle is shot less accurately then a heavier rifle largely because a lighter rifle will respond to every tiny movement your body makes. for example, Glock handgun vs 1911 45ACP. Can they both be shot accurately yes. Does the 45 handle better based on it's weight? Yes
As for light countour barrels, barrel whip plays a huge role with a lot of the big boomers and for that accuracy falls off. A short barreled light contour barrel will have more ridgitity but it's rare you find a 16" light contour bbl.

Stock choice plays a huge roll in making the point in the same direction every time. If you can flex the front stock and touch either side of your barrel, guess what happens when you pull the trigger?

As for scopes, again, you get what you pay for. I've sold scopes to guys that don't want anything more then a 1-4x but they want quality and lots of light gathering ability so they get good glass USO, Leupold, Nightforce (2.5-10x24)
If someone came to me and wanted a bush scope as well as a target scope, I'd have to recommend either the Nightforce 3.5-15x50mm or better yet and 5.5-22x50mm.
From what you buy, will direct you a little more as to where you hunt as well. You get good with what you practice with and if sight aquisition at close range is your weak points, then practice.
Like I said, your style of hunting changes based on the type of gun you have or vice versa. If I'm in the bush and it's thick, use a shotgun. Why walk in there with a 300WM when you can almost reach out and touch the animal. In that case, open sights are your friend.
If you scope up with a little heavier gun and you've got a 3.5-15 or 5.5-22, you're going to position yourself beside a game trail maybe 100yds or so out of the bush along a fence line where you've got a great field of view.

As for not being able to get behind a 50mm objective vs a 40mm abjective. This is the old way of thinking that the reticle has to be as close to the bore as possible. Things have changed. If the gun doesn't have an adjustable cheek rest, I'll suggest a 50mm objective in a heart beat but I'll also install the scope so that the individual feels comfortable behind the rifle with a natural sight picture through the scope and this is very easily doable.
Things you pay for in a more expensive scope are things like reticles that mean something. An MOA reticle has got to be the most practicle reticle on the planet unless you have MIL rad turrets in which case a mil rad reticle would make sense. Without reference marks in the scope, you can't accurately hold over, you can't correct properly, chances are you don't have repeatable turrets. Also too, none tactical scopes don't have the total minutes of elevation or windage needed to make proper use of the scope in long range applications. Ziess come to mind. Great glass, limited elevation. Theres a lot more to getting a good quality scope then just the name. Also too, once you buy a good quality scope,

This was an excellent response, and you do point out scenarios where a heavy target rifle could be effectively used in big game hunting. As I said on an earlier post, Alberta has terrain that lends itself well to longer range shooting where such rifles come into their own. I enjoy long range shooting and have invested a sizable chunk of change on a rifle for that purpose. But when big game hunting I've never fired a shot where I would of needed to dial in the target due to range; wind though is another matter. This is a personal choice as much of the enjoyment I get from hunting comes from the successful stalk.

You say that things have changed with respect to keeping the reticle as close as possible to the bore. I disagree, the Europeans have mounted their scopes far too high for generations, yet some of them can shoot well anyway. The height of the scope above the bore is not a problem at long range, provided that a repeatable cheek-weld can be attained, but it does seem to add an unnecessary degree of difficulty to what should be a simple solution to the problem. Clearly, if the scope has a large objective, and the stock is configured in such a way that a natural cheek-weld can be attained, switching to iron sights, due to short range or a damaged scope, is not possible due to the height of the comb, unless it's adjustable.

The big game hunter may find himself in a transitional forest zone where the range can be short or long. In the boreal forest power-lines, river banks, and lake shores provide enough opportunities for longish shots that a scoped rifle is a better choice than the shotgun. The northern hunter may have to push his way through thicks stands of willows that crisscross the tundra. The African hunter may encounter long grass and thick korongos that limit the range of visibility to a few feet, yet a 200+ yard shot is not unheard of on plains game. The point is that many of the areas encountered by the big game hunter have a diversity in the terrain, which in turn must reflect on the choice of his rifle and scope. For the vast majority of big game hunting opportunities, why would you choose a big, heavy, and fragile scope ( USO the exception) on a heavy target rifle?

I agree that sometimes a heavier rifle can be shot more accurately than a light rifle. But this is a matter of degree, and is only true when the rifles are fired unsupported. If the shot is made from a supported position, the light rifle is at no disadvantage. If the rifle is fired unsupported, the range would be short and the speed afforded by the lighter rifle would make up for the better pointability of the heavier rifle. While it might hold true that an 8 pound rifle can be shot more accurately than a 5 pound rifle, it does not hold true in all cases. An important element to consider is that of balance. If the weight of the rifle lays between the hands or allows for a slight muzzle heaviness all is good, and unsupported fire can be effective with a surprisingly heavy rifle. But if the rifle is so muzzle heavy that it must be forcibly held down to be kept in the shoulder, that rifle will not be shot well off hand.

There is another problem with the use of the target rifle in the hunting field, and that is the trigger. The dedicated target rifle usually has a very light let off, often measured in ounces rather than pounds. When it's cold outside, as it often is during big game seasons, proper trigger control with such a trigger becomes problematical if you cannot feel the contact with the trigger without firing the rifle.

The dedicated long range game shooter can, should, and will discount my opinions, but the fact that the question was asked, the poster does not have the experience to be in that category. If there is one marksman in 1000 that can engage big game at ranges over 500 yards, where the HB target rifle makes sense, I'd be surprised. The question in hunting is not what the rifle is capable of, it is a question of what the guy behind the rifle can do on demand in any given condition.
 
I will check that out. I have sightron on a used 300 I picked up cheap and I like it. Im no expert but I can find the target real quick.

All Savage and Stevens rifles shoot well. Just pick the one you like, bed the action, free float the pipe and load ammo it likes. Odds are it will be sub MOA with a good potential to shoot around 1/2 MOA.

Glock, the difference in price between the Elites and NF is significant - double in most cases. So more like comparing Vettes/M3's to 911's.

For better reticle choice, more elevation adjustment (but is it utilized by 90% of the owners?), it is a huge price to pay. I think you know how picky I am with optical glass and the NF is not the end all.

Pretty much the same as the Elites as they are/were made by the same Japanese house.

The New Sightron SIII LR scopes have amazing glass (yes, speaking from first hand experience) and are also priced significantly less then the NF. Again, very few reticle choices but they do have mil dot and target dot. They come with gobs of elevation and windage adjustment.

I think these new Sightrons are not far behind the S&B's for optical quality. Yeah, they are amazing.

NF has a very strong following and has worked well in the field and in competition, but others are now chopping at its heels with equal/better performance for substantially less money.

Top optics are getting cheaper.

Jerry
 
Why not compromise? I built a Remington 700 with an LTR DM stock. It has a 24" pipe and 3.5-10x40mm Leupold LR/T scope. I believe it weighs in under 11lbs with everything -- I should weigh it some time. Anyway, it is very accurate (I can shoot .5 MOA 5 round groups with my handloads) It really is good to know that IF I miss an animal it is not because of the scope or rifle. I love that the scope (M2 Custom knob) is matched to my loads (168 Grain 308 Win). I took 2 deer with it last year - one at 46 m and one at 196 m (lased). The close shot was child's play as the 3x gave an excellent FOV at 196 m I cranked it up to 6x and it was excellent. I killed both deer with one shot. I used the for the longer shot and it was right on the money (I aimed for the heart).
 
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