remington pro needed

RR said:
Fogducker
If they were small base They would have a SB after the caliber stamp.
First I am going to explain something you all probably know.In lever,pump and semi auto rifles they usually have a slightly shorter chamber , There are some exceptions to this old winchester such as 30-30 and 25-35, all the savages, I am not sure about Browning as I have only loaded for a223 in a BLR.The point is cartridges loaded in ordinary full length dies tend to either jam tight or not chamber fully.This is what Small Base dies are for.
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Case sizing may or may not be a factor. I kinda doubt it as a slightly oversize case would not increase pressures. It would make it hard to chamber and extract.

As for the SB die thing, I load for 4 different Remington pump CF rifles and just use regular dies for all. FL re-sizing is enough for smooth chambering, but results may vary.

SC.................
 
Small base dies are used because pumps, lever guns and semi's lack the caming power of a bolt gun to push the round home that last little bit. Nothing to do with chamber size that I'm aware of.

Is there any evidence of case buckling on the necks.?
If I remember right, the bullets you showed me had no cannelure, meaning they should not be crimped with a standard die. Attempting to do so will make a slight buckle in the neck, making the case hard to chamber, and raising pressures substantially when fired, as that buckle squeezes the hell out of the bullet in the chamber.
If that's the 'case' :roll: You nead to back off the seating die slightly, so it doesn't attempt to crimp and then reajust your OAL with the seating screw.
 
Super Cub
I sold you that CF2 after I replaced the extractor. If you didn't need the smallbase die you could send it back. The CF2 would chamber factory but only about 1 out of 5 of brass done with a regular full lenth sizer. This was tried with 3 different brands of sizers
and 2 fellas with a combined total of about 50 yrs experience. I had 1 winchester 88 with the same problem 3 rem pumps and one rem semi another guy reloaded for and had the same results as Don. They tried to load another one and it jammed that's when they sold it to me for parts.
John Y
If its the neck crimp yes that could cause it.I have just seen to many non standard chambers I guess.
Rich
 
RR said:
Super Cub
I sold you that CF2 after I replaced the extractor. If you didn't need the smallbase die you could send it back. The CF2 would chamber factory but only about 1 out of 5 of brass done with a regular full lenth sizer.
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This is true for that rifle. It DID have a very small chamber and required a SB die for proper chambering and extraction.



RR said:
I had 1 winchester 88 with the same problem 3 rem pumps and one rem semi another guy reloaded for and had the same results as Don.
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I only mentioned my eperience with SB dies in pump rifles to represent my experience with them. I have not needed SB dies as of yet for any 760/7600 rifle. FL resizing has been enough, but factory chambers do vary and I am sure that others have had to use the smaller sized brass.

Having said that, I wonder or even doubt that improper sizing would have caused a blown primer as shown in the pic. Those high pressures, IMO, were likely caused by another source. :D

SC..............
 
I am not saying this is the cause of the high pressure. My question was did it fire out of battery.And if so was the small base issue the answer of the chambering problem or as John Y s info about the case necks the culprit.Or am I just blowin smoke about the whole thing :shock: If it was in battery when it fired then disreguard my guess.
Rich
edited to add
One more point and then I will get off the small base kick. In most cases if new brass is fireformed to these chambers it can be reloaded with reg dies with no problems unless real hot loads are used.Where I have had the most need for SB dies is second hand brass from another source.
 
Not sure what caused the problem...COL was ruled out and presumably after one firing the case neck thickness was not a factor (but can cause high pressure) ... regarding a hot barrel/chamber.... I have seen rifles fired in auto that glowed in the dark and you could light a cigarette off. Other than the danger of a "cook-off" (which I gather didn't happen here as we would have been told - "the rifle went off by itself ... before I even pulled the trigger") I have never seen extreme pressure symptoms resulting from a hot barrel/chamber. I guess it could happen if you were balls to the wall on powder to begin with ....but I wouldn't carry on as if normal and assume that a hot barrel was the problem without ruling out every other possibility. AP
 
Not sure what caused the problem...COL was ruled out and presumably after one firing the case neck thickness was not a factor (but can cause high pressure) ... regarding a hot barrel/chamber.... I have seen rifles fired in auto that glowed in the dark and you could light a cigarette off. Other than the danger of a "cook-off" (which I gather didn't happen here as we would have been told - "the rifle went off by itself ... before I even pulled the trigger") I have never seen extreme pressure symptoms resulting from a hot barrel/chamber. I guess it could happen if you were balls to the wall on powder to begin with ....but I wouldn't carry on as if normal and assume that a hot barrel was the problem without ruling out every other possibility. AP
 
SuperCub said:
RR said:
My question was did it fire out of battery.
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That's a scary thought, I didn't consider.

Should try to get it to do it again :idea: ...........UNLOADED of course :D


SC.......................
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??? ya mean try a few dry fires?? or try a few fired cases???this tec talk is just baffooning me :shock: ...but i do thank you,s all for any help
 
SuperCub said:
RR said:
My question was did it fire out of battery.
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That's a scary thought, I didn't consider.

Should try to get it to do it again :idea: ...........UNLOADED of course :D


SC.......................
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??? ya mean try a few dry fires?? or try a few fired cases???this tec talk is just baffooning me :shock: ...but you know im gonna resize a few cases and pop in the spent old primmers and see how this works for chambering and firing...just to see what happens
 
RR, the only difference between small base dies, and regular dies, is that they reduce the base of the case more than standard dies do. They are not any shorter in length. If you have a short chamber, they won't help. I speak from experience on that one, as my wifes BLR has a spec. chamber that will occasionally not chamber a factory round.
That said, my fairly large collection of Winchester levers of most types has never had any such problem.

Firing out of battery should have blown the case head to bits, unless it was only slightly out of battery, creating a headspace condition. That might show a light primer strike, but I think we're just guessing.
The most obvious cause is human error. Fogducker, have you put the scale away? check the reading you had it set at, see if it got bumped.
Also, did the scale at any time get moved while you were loading?
Moving a balance scale, even a few inches, will usually throw off the zero, sometimes way off. If you even bump your scale while you are reloading, return all settings to zero, and re - zero the scale.
 
ok the test results are in :cry: i made up four dummy rounds...had the same chambering problems with the gun...really gotta force to chamber......i got out my other rem.760 model....the same results...
with what makes me to believe that i have to get the small base dies,from post ive read further up...im starting to believe after this test that when the problem arose that i had ...that the breech was not locked when i fired
...what do you,s think,ill have to buy the small base dies???
 
jyc....i even come across the first batch of dummy shell,s you made up,when you gave me a lesson on reloading....i get the same in both guns with them...but factory round seem fine :roll:
 
AP said:
I have never seen extreme pressure symptoms resulting from a hot barrel/chamber.
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While not common by any means I have seen a few cartridge / powder combinations build velocity, and pressure , in a mildly warm chamber.

The last rifle was one belonging to a friend that I was working up loads for. The rifle was a 270 and I was loading 140 gr Hornady BTSP over Reloder 22. Starting 10% under book maximum I had loaded 5 different powder weights in groups of 3. Waiting a full min. between shots and 15 min. between groups I saw a disturbing pattern developing. Shot one was "X" fps. Shot 2 a min. later with the same powder charge was "X" + ~50 fps, The third shot was "X" + ~100 fps. This pattern continued right up to the last group with the last shot beating book velocity by 100 fps while still 5% under book maximum powder charge. That last shot also started slight brass flow into the ejector cut on the bolt. I have no question in my mind that if I had allowed less time between shots I would have blown a primer or two.
 
That's interesting Boo.... I have examined carefully one round that did "cook-off" in a GPMG. There was no sign of excessive pressure exhibited by the case.... which wasn't hard to find as the no.2 was sweeping brass and link away from the gun at the time - the gun had not been cleared as it should have been. I have looked at a case that was claimed to have cooked off in a C2 --- I have my doubts about this and think it was an AD .... nonetheless the barrel was just about cherry red when it happened. There was no sign of high pressure.

These are extreme cases when the chamber is that hot and the round sits in the chamber long enough to get heat soaked....but I don't think that cartridge ignition caused by heat is a violent as that caused by a struck primer - in fact I don't know if the ignition due to heat is initiated by the primer or the powder.

So much for my experience with extreme chamber temperatures. As for the combination of extreme chamber temperatures and a cartridge initiated by a struck primer.... same/same .... I have seen this many times on military ranges and never witnessed an spent casing that looked like the illustration provided here on this thread.

I accept the fact that powder characteristics differ and military (eg IMR) or some ball powders may have different characteristics; I am familiar with the frequent reference to African big bore rounds being loaded to lower pressure to accomodate the high ambient heat of an African plain -- not sure this isn't more to do with the less strong break action doubles used at the time.... it gets damn hot in Suffield Alta as well....

The round that was illustrated and the difficulty removing the case from the bolt face appear to show extreme expansion of the cartridge base....this is the strongest part of the cartridge and suggests to me a significant overload.

I still believe that in this situation the shooter should examine other elements of his load and firearm before assuming it was only heat that caused the problem, and as a result carry on. That's what I would do... but to each his own. AP
 
ok another check ive just done.....factory rounds that work ok are on an average of .465 inches near the base.......the ones i made up are averaging about .470 inch ....i measured these with a digital read out micrometer...so thats an an extra .005 inch wider on the reload,s..
but yet the manual says .470 is the size they should be :roll:
 
I am curious ... did you measure the case length before or after resizing? Many folks are not aware that when the expansion ball is pulled from the cartridge it can stretch a cartridge. On occasion some dies (I have had this happen with RCBS) will have expansion plug that has a slight ridge that can pull the case neck up. Powder residue inside the neck OR lack of lubricant inside the neck will also cause case stretching....would be interested in your case length after resizing... good luck AP
 
AP said:
I am curious ... did you measure the case length before or after resizing? Many folks are not aware that when the expansion ball is pulled from the cartridge it can stretch a cartridge. On occasion some dies (I have had this happen with RCBS) will have expansion plug that has a slight ridge that can pull the case neck up. Powder residue inside the neck OR lack of lubricant inside the neck will also cause case stretching....would be interested in your case length after resizing... good luck AP
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all was measured after resizing..
 
The factory case will be smaller in diameter everywhere, as well as shorter. Once fired brass will expand to fit the chamber.

STEP 1. When you size a piece of brass, the dies must be correctly adjusted. To full length size for you rifle, place the appropriate shellholder in the ram of your press and screw the die in. Raise the ram to the top and screw down the die until it contacts the shellholder. If your press "cams over" it will require some effort to pull up the handle, thats OK. Place a clean and lubed piece of brass in the shellholder and fully raise the ram, resizing the brass, ***noting if the die still contacts the shellholder*** If the die no longer contacts the shellholder, you must screw down the die that until it contacts ***when a case is being sized***. This will ensure that you are FULL length sizing, not just mostly length sizing. Now trim if necessary.

Step 2. If you still cannot chamber a round by using styep 1, you need to proceed to step 2. Which is as posted above, remove the decapping pin and repeat step 1.

Cheers
 
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