Remington shotguns going down hill?

[ryanloco]

As a business Remington has to delivery money to shareholders.

However, Tikka and Savage are hitting Remington's rifle market really hard. Moss is eating low end shotgun section. At meaning time, I don't see Remington doing anything to open new territory except making the super stupid Remington air-gun.

That left them no way but to squeeze either employee or supplier, or both.

At some point down that road, Remington's quality has to go down, simply because they can't afford the cost to make a good gun.

Just my observation.

Agree to a point...

Remington (Cerberus Capital Management) will look for ways to take cost out of their bread and butter 870 (i.e. the express) and/or improve the manufacturing process to help with the bottom line. Some of these improvements may be perceived as hurting quality, but as stated above.. where is the data?

I don't think there is an unbiased 3rd party consumer review for rifles/shotguns.. we rely on the numerous shooting/sporting magazines to provide reviews/opionions and basis for comparing brands.

I'd say Marlin/H&R are the low boys in the pump game right now with their foreign made (China) 870 "clone" called the pardener? In some places that is selling for less than Norinco's

 

[Hi-Standard]

I would expect that a day's wages should supply a day's needs or equivalent.

Not being able to afford is a reality today and not being able to afford is in no way the same as too God Damned cheap. The later get what they deserve.

Let's put it this way. If Remington were producing a shotgun of, again 30 or 40 year old Wingmaster quality, and overseas company B was producing a shotgun of say Express quality. If you wanted a waterfowler and you had enough money in your pocket for shotgun B, but at twice the price you would have to save a little while to purchase a Wingmaster. Which would you choose? And be honest I can say that in the vast majority of cases, myself included(I myself bought a brand new Express Supermag), that most people would chose brand B or a lesser quality Wingmaster(Express).

 

[Covey Ridge]

At some point down that road, Remington's quality has to go down, simply because they can't afford the cost to make a good gun.

Just my observation.

Good observation, but if they can not afford to make good gunz they will eventually pay the price by not staying in business. Instead of making good gunz they seem to be just in the business of flooding the market with sellable stuff, mostly junk!

 

[Claybuster]

Again this is anecdotal. I heard that... He said this...etc Is there a single 3rd party objective survey which tracks product quality for guns? I have yet to hear anyone reference one. Until that happens there is nothing wrong with Remington, Winchester or anything else.

Anecdotal is what someone says as in "anecdote" or story My observations on the degradation of Remington quality are empirical as in that which is based upon my own observations and experience. Having owned about a dozen Wingmasters from the 60's to 2003 and examined dozens more of all ages there is little doubt in my mind that they are not what they used to be.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Which would you choose? And be honest

To be 100% honest, even though I have owned many wingmasters, and will probably own many more, the only thing I like about them is their reliability. Now if I needed a waterfowl gun and I don't, but if I did and all I could afford was an express, I would probably buy the express or not go hunting, but knowing that they are only half what a wingmaster is I would probably flog the express at the first oportunity and buy the wingmaster, or preferably pick up an older wingmaster. As someone's signature says "life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun" For me I would say, "life is too short to hunt with bargain basement crap." Feel free to substitute, express, norinco, or Maverick 88, Baikal, Condor or whatever for crap!

Forgive the direction I have taken. My original intention was to define the difference between too God damed cheap and can not afford.

 

[Calum]

I'll say one thing about the newer 870s, a few years ago when a member of one of the clubs I goto ended up with yet another broken firing pin, with a good shake it would rattle back into position so he could keep shooting at the fun trap event.

 

[Hi-Standard]

As someone's signature says "life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun" For me I would say, "life is too short to hunt with bargain basement crap." Feel free to substitute, express, norinco, or Maverick 88, Baikal, Condor or whatever for crap!

Forgive the direction I have taken. My original intention was to define the difference between too God damed cheap and can not afford.

I don't quite understand where you're coming from Covey Ridge. You're saying in one statement that you won't hunt with bargain basement crap, but in another statement you're saying that you can't afford good quality?! now don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing your financial situation, I'm no Donald Trump either. But when, and I am including myself, we don't lay down good money for quality, then the Express is the end result. That is why I too dumped my Express, and now collect vintage 1100's

 

[Covey Ridge]

I don't quite understand where you're coming from Covey Ridge. You're saying in one statement that you won't hunt with bargain basement crap, but in another statement you're saying that you can't afford good quality?! now don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing your financial situation, I'm no Donald Trump either. But when, and I am including myself, we don't lay down good money for quality, then the Express is the end result. That is why I too dumped my Express, and now collect vintage 1100's

Where did I ever say I can not afford quality? I do not own any ####!

It is obvious that you do not understand. Maybe the way I put it? or the way you read it? Maybe when I put myself in your shoes to answer your can not afford situation/question you actually assumed that was my situation?

Anyways, "Too God damned cheap" to me is a derogatory damnation and equals STINGY! That has never been my way and I am quite the opposite

In my way of thinking "too God damned cheap" is different from:

"Can not afford"....I have been there done that....it is a reality for many....but now that is not my situation....and even when I was there I appreciated quality and did not like cheap ####. In your honest question senerio, in truth I would have probably borrowed a gun or bought good quality used way before I would have bought an express and I would have not went hunting if I had to buy a norinky!

 

[michaelsabre]

Nothing wrong to save money. Life is hard enough.

 

[Hi-Standard]

Where did I ever say I can not afford quality? I do not own any s**t!

It is obvious that you do not understand. Maybe the way I put it? or the way you read it? Maybe when I put myself in your shoes to answer your can not afford situation/question you actually assumed that was my situation?

Anyways, "Too God damned cheap" to me is a derogatory damnation and equals STINGY! That has never been my way and I am quite the opposite

In my way of thinking "too God damned cheap" is different from:

"Can not afford"....I have been there done that....it is a reality for many....but now that is not my situation....and even when I was there I appreciated quality and did not like cheap s**t. In your honest question senerio, in truth I would have probably borrowed a gun or bought good quality used way before I would have bought an express and I would have not went hunting if I had to buy a norinky!

OK Covey Ridge, I guess I'm the only one that is too God Damned Cheap! But let me say one thing before I sign off this thread for good. I have a small collection by a lot of guys standards, only about 20 or so guns. Long arms and handguns included, but there are lot of people with 50 to 60 or a 100 or more guns, mostly milsurp. You can easily put a $250 to $350 price tag on most of their gear. But tell them you spent a $1200 on a brand new hunting rifle and their eyes roll back into their heads and they almost pass out. That my friend is why Remington is producing bead blasted, plastic stocked, crap! People will gladly fill their basements full to the brim of $350 milsurps, and their is absolutly nothing wrong with a milsurp so don't everybody get your pee all hot I have some of my own, but when the time comes to buy a quality rifle or shotgun they cheap out. Now that is what I'm calling too God Damned Cheap!

 

[geologist]

Hey if all a guy can afford is an SKS and a couple of boxes of FMJ's I'll still welcome him when he shows up at the range.

 

[Hi-Standard]

Hey if all a guy can afford is an SKS and a couple of boxes of FMJ's I'll still welcome him when he shows up at the range.

All guns are welcome geologist, and all guns are beautiful in their own way but the question was raised as to why Remington, and not just Remington either, quality appears to be going downhill, and IMHO if we don't buy their quality products, whether we can afford them, or as I put it, too god damned cheap, for those of us that can afford them but lie to ourselves and say we can't afford them then this is the end result. We can have 12000 dollars worth of $300 guns at home but we refuse to pay for the labour involved in the fine tuning of a quality firearm.

 

[Covey Ridge]

OK Covey Ridge, I guess I'm the only one that is too God Damned Cheap! But let me say one thing before I sign off this thread for good. I have a small collection by a lot of guys standards, only about 20 or so guns. Long arms and handguns included, but there are lot of people with 50 to 60 or a 100 or more guns, mostly milsurp. You can easily put a $250 to $350 price tag on most of their gear. But tell them you spent a $1200 on a brand new hunting rifle and their eyes roll back into their heads and they almost pass out. That my friend is why Remington is producing bead blasted, plastic stocked, crap! People will gladly fill their basements full to the brim of $350 milsurps, and their is absolutly nothing wrong with a milsurp so don't everybody get your pee all hot I have some of my own, but when the time comes to buy a quality rifle or shotgun they cheap out. Now that is what I'm calling too God Damned Cheap!

Hi-Standard: Now I understand you! I know the guys you are talking about! They are too God Damned cheap! and they got what they paid for! Junk Collectors! Appreciate your opinion. It is similar to mine

 

[Hi-Standard]

Hi-Standard: Now I understand you! I know the guys you are talking about! They are too God Damned cheap! and they got what they paid for! Junk Collectors! Appreciate your opinion. It is similar to mine

Well Covey Ridge i'm glad we agree, and just for the record, milsurps and the brave young men that carried them into battle are the reason you and I have free speach today, so please don't think I'm bashing milsurps. They are what they are. Battle tough, and reasonably accurate. But when we collect only milsurp and someone elses used shotguns and rifles, then one need not ask where Remington, Winchester, Colt(revolvers), and if we are not careful Smith & Wesson are going. So let everybody go out and buy just one brand new gun! I've got my eye on a brand new Smitty 1911 as soon as I finish paying for this damn quad!

 

[Covey Ridge]

So let everybody go out and buy just one brand new gun! I've got my eye on a brand new Smitty 1911 as soon as I finish paying for this damn quad!

I will do my part! I plan to buy one new gun of quality per year as long as the good Lord keeps me here and healty enough to burn powder!