Remington trigger woes.

Remington triggers

No Lawsuits? Better check your facts............
There was a recall on Model 600's in the late '70's...I know as I had a discharge and soon thereafter saw an advert in Outdoor Life or Sports Afield and sent the rifle away for correction........
It may well be a combination of poor maintainance, sloppy manufacturing, or maybe even a flawed design..........
 
I watched the program that the original post refers to... it aired last night in the US. Very interesting program and consisted of much more than just a single person making claims.

They interviewed Mr. Walker (the now retired Remington employee who designed the trigger mechanism in question and who lobbied for the company to make changes when it was first discovered there was an issue). He states clearly that the design was flawed and that he recommended a change which Remington chose to ignore because of increased production costs. He confirms that the gun can discharge without contacting the trigger and with the safety in the "on" position.

They showed a video of a Remington spokesperson be questioned under oath during an affidavit for one of the many lawsuit outstanding againt Remington and when asked directly, she confirmed that Remington has been aware for years that the Model 700 series guns with the Walker Trigger can discharge without the trigger being contacted and even with the Safety "on".

They showed stacks of letters sent to Remington (part of the legal lawsuit discovery process) confirming that there have been thousands of reports of unintentional/accidental discharges.

They showed Remington internal documents that admit at least 1% of all Remington 700 series rifles are affected by the problem... according to Remington this currently means 5,000,000 guns sold result in 50,000 guns with a problem.

After watching the program I have to say that I'm convinced that there is an issue and that Remington has known about it for years... but chose to deal with the lawsuits instead of recalling the product and fixing the issue. I own a very early model of the 700 (one of the first ever offered in .222Remington) and while I've never had a problem with it, the program concerned me.

It will be interesting to see how Remington responds over the next weeks and months now that the information is out in the public domain. The program certainly appeared to be a lot more than just some anti-gun network or individual with a cause making stuff up... there's a lot of apparent evidence not only that the trigger system has a problem (not just "dirt") and that Remington conspired to hide the problem from the public.

It got my attention and I'll be watching to see how Remington defends itself against the very specific and very damning accusations that were made.

Mark
 
cycbb486 said:
I NEVER TRUST A SAFETY. If there is no round in the chamber there is NO REASON to move the safety from safe to fire. I close the bolt, aim and fire. No need for the safety.

There is a reason Benchrest shooters do not have safties on there triggers, cannot be relied on. If a cease fire is called the rifle is unchambered, shell removed and the bolt as well. That is the ONLY TRUE SAFETY.

CBY
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Exactly. I have hardly ever used the safety on my R700P just because I've only ever shot F-Class/Benchrest. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever loaded more than one round into the mag. Next time I'm out shooting I'll test to see if my gun is one of the 50000 or so problem guns just so I know if it is, but getting a new trigger assembly for it is a waste of money. Unless Remington recalls every gun free of charge to the owner to fix the problem (which I can't see ever happening), my gun will stay just as it is.
 
Questar,
Just above your post is longknife's post where he mentions a recall. Yet, you say Remington chose to deal with the lawsuits rather than recalling the product to correct the issues. You cannot base your opinion on what you have been fed by an NBC commentator. Remington did attempt to deal with the issue as a quality issue.
You have to remember that editing occurs for a program like this. Mike Walker might very well have said, "the trigger can fire when the safety is released if the trigger is misadjusted or improperly maintained". He might have said, "If the safety parts are worn, the trigger can allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released". He might have said these things because they are absolutely true. They are also true of virtually every over riding sear-type trigger on the market today.
The change Mike Walker advised was the addition of a trigger block to the safety mechanism. This was not done but there is no telling whether or not it would have made any difference if the parts were dimensionally incorrect.
By the way, the information has been out in the public domain for years. It has just found a new forum. Regards, Bill.
 
Leeper said:
Questar,
Just above your post is longknife's post where he mentions a recall. Yet, you say Remington chose to deal with the lawsuits rather than recalling the product to correct the issues. You cannot base your opinion on what you have been fed by an NBC commentator. Remington did attempt to deal with the issue as a quality issue.
You have to remember that editing occurs for a program like this. Mike Walker might very well have said, "the trigger can fire when the safety is released if the trigger is misadjusted or improperly maintained". He might have said, "If the safety parts are worn, the trigger can allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released". He might have said these things because they are absolutely true. They are also true of virtually every over riding sear-type trigger on the market today.
The change Mike Walker advised was the addition of a trigger block to the safety mechanism. This was not done but there is no telling whether or not it would have made any difference if the parts were dimensionally incorrect.
By the way, the information has been out in the public domain for years. It has just found a new forum. Regards, Bill.
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Fair enough... but the post above mine referred to a recall of Model 600 guns not the Model 700 series that the program talked about. I've never seen a recall notice for the Model 700 I own... would love to hear anyone out there who actually received such a recall notice for the Model 700 trigger issue... that would go a long way to discrediting the MSNBC program.

I've seen "edited interviews" and the section with Mr. Walker may have left stuff out, I have no way to know that, but the stuff he did say was quite damning and he himself stated that Remington worked to keep the information from being made public and that the interview he was giving was likely to "get him in a lot of trouble".

I'd just like to see (from Remington) some factual information that debunks and corrects any mistakes or errors that were brought up by the program that MSNBC aired... don't see any harm in that.

Mark
 
Questar said:
I've never seen a recall notice for the Model 700 I own... would love to hear anyone out there who actually received such a recall notice for the Model 700 trigger issue... that would go a long way to discrediting the MSNBC program.


Mark
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I never received a personal note from Remington... quite possibly because Remington did not know I owned 700's... and I am sure there are millions of owners in the same position... but I was quite aware they recalled 700's. I am sure all of the stores selling Remington were aware of it. I think most owners ignored the recall if their rifle was working fine... as most of them were...
 
guntech said:
I never received a personal note from Remington... quite possibly because Remington did not know I owned 700's... and I am sure there are millions of owners in the same position... but I was quite aware they recalled 700's. I am sure all of the stores selling Remington were aware of it. I think most owners ignored the recall if their rifle was working fine... as most of them were...
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I have no intention of getting rid of my 700... been working great for over 40 years and don't have a problem with it now.

I found the MSNBC program interesting since I have no memory of ever seeing any recall or publicity about this before last night... but my memory sucks as I get older so maybe I've just forgotten. I happen to be down in the Quad City area right now and speaking with various people from the firearms industry today, not a single one of them had ever heard about a Model 700 recall for trigger issues... nor where any of them aware that there had ever been publicized reports of trigger problems with the Model 700's... so I'm not the only one in the industry that can't remember ever hearing about this before last night.

It is nice to see that Remington is taking steps to respond to the program... their website is already showing little videos answering some of the points made by MSNBC, and it looks like they have more to come. That's all I was looking for was specific info that showed their side of the story if you will.

In the end it's all he said she said... I just want the info to make an informed decision. Can't blame a guy for that :)

Mark
 
guntech said:
Panic is setting in guys... you watch too much TV.

The 700 trigger has been and still is a great trigger...
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All you guys that own Model 700's, particularly .280 Rem, 7mm-08 and .260 Rem....

YOUR TRIGGER WILL KILL YOU. Fortunately I am a redneck idiot and don't care about my own safety. So I'll take all your Model 700's at 1/4 of book value...I care about you guys THAT much.
 
Today I had a fellow call and come to my shop in a panic...

He had his 700 in one hand and an article about changing the "Walker" trigger for a Timney trigger...

A friend had told him 700's had a big problem...and showed him some news clipping.

This was compounded by the fact he had 3 failures to fire occur a little while ago moose hunting... and then after his friend cleaned the firing pin assembly they went to the range and he had it fire twice when he close the bolt...

He was sure he had one the the noted problem rifles...

I closed the bolt and hammered on the firing pin, it did not fire. I pulled the trigger and it fired. I re cocked and closed the bolt again and engaged the safety - and pulled on the trigger and hammered on the firing pin... and then disengaged the safety - it did not fire. I pulled the trigger and it fired.

He asked why it malfunctioned for him...

With the bolt out I tried the sear movement with a punch.. it was hard to move and very slow returning...

Then I took the trigger apart ... it was gummed up and very sticky with very old lubrication. I washed it lightly with lacquer thinner and assembled it and reinstalled it.

I went through all the tests again... it works perfectly.

I explained the cause of the no firing while hunting was due to old gummy lubrication in the firing pin assembly within the bolt body and the accidental discharge at the range was due to the filthy trigger gummed up with old lube. He had never cleaned or had this rifle serviced in the 15 plus years he has owned it.

He now has left it here for a thorough cleaning and a new scope and mounts and bedding, etc.

This trigger malfunction is typical.. caused by improper maintenance. That was explained to him and he left happy with the knowledge the rifle is sound. A complete opposite view from when he came in. He was bad mouthing Remington and was all hyped up about the trigger article, and really pissed about the junk Remington made...

I think a lot of the trigger problems that get blamed on Remington are very similar to this and have nothing to do with the quality or design - just lousy maintenance or improperly adjusted after the factory...
 
Sasquatch807 said:
THIS IS A TIMELY SUBJECT!!!

My wife and I just got back from moose hunting last night. She bought herself a new Rem mod 700 SPS-DBM in .30-06. It had exactly 9 days worth of hunting use (from a comfortable blind built for a lady). The first time she ever tried to remove the safety, the shot went off, stripping a layer of skin from her thumb. The gun isn`t dirty (except for my wife`s blood all over the stock) and trigger wasn`t tampered with, and no, her fingers were nowhere near the trigger. I'm tempted to just install a Timney trigger rather than deal with Remington`s repair service denial that anything can be wrong with their trigger/safety mechanism. What would you do.
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I'd sell it right away. I'll give you $300 for the rifle. :)
 
If we had a long gun registry at the time, Remington could have notified each Remington owner rather than simply trying to reach everyone through advertising in outdoor publications (no CGN back then). Boy. I'm sure glad we have that registry now! Just another way our government is keeping us safe! I can't believe I've gotten sucked into the Remington trigger debate again. To paraphrase Chief Joseph: "From where the sun nows stands I will say no more, forever." Regards, Bill
 
Sasquatch807 said:
THIS IS A TIMELY SUBJECT!!!

My wife and I just got back from moose hunting last night. She bought herself a new Rem mod 700 SPS-DBM in .30-06. It had exactly 9 days worth of hunting use (from a comfortable blind built for a lady). The first time she ever tried to remove the safety, the shot went off, stripping a layer of skin from her thumb. The gun isn`t dirty (except for my wife`s blood all over the stock) and trigger wasn`t tampered with, and no, her fingers were nowhere near the trigger. I'm tempted to just install a Timney trigger rather than deal with Remington`s repair service denial that anything can be wrong with their trigger/safety mechanism. What would you do.
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I would inspect it, I would test it, I would determine what the problem is. That's what I would do.
 
No lawsuits? Guess again. Our friends to the south have all sorts of pending actions filed and you can even go to the site below and jump on the bandwagon..Only in America..It also describes the problems experienced so you can see you're not alone with the finger off the trigger firing.
w w w.rifflawfirm.com/areas/remington-litigation.cfm

dB
 
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I had a remington that fired as I took the safety off. My finger wasn't near the trigger. Gun was clean.

I tried to repeat it and it seems 1 out a 100 times it does it.
 
My son uses a M700 so Sunday we load up a truck load of guns and dogs and head to the bush to do some grousing/shooting.

Because I just sold a couple 06s I have a surplus of ammo. I was determined to see if I could make that rifle do something unsafe.......it was no problem.

I couldn't get it to fire with the safety but it was easy to get it not to fire with the safety off.

I simply pushed slightly on the side of the trigger ( to the right on a left handed gun) and pulled. The gun would not fire and the trigger was stiff like in safety on position. You didn't have to hold the trigger to the right, just push it and then pull the trigger-even several minutes later.

You are left holding a gun that will now fire if you do one of three things.

1 Try to move the safety.

2 Tap on the bolt.

3 Push the trigger on the on the right side back to the left.

I believe this is exactly how they got the sniper rifle to fire by touching the bolt in the doc.

Another thing that was every bit as disturbing was after a left push on the trigger. The trigger went to a very light pull-I would guess under a pound.

I do know now why snipers like the light trigger. I fired the best 3 shot group of my life after pushing this thing to the left.

Without wiggling or pushing the trigger the gun worked flawlessly.

The trigger was adjusted to 3.5 lbs ( this was not an option it came factory at like 10 lbs) by a good smith with many years of Remington experience and like I said it breaks perfectly if you don't screw with it before firing.

At home I could not repeat the events and could see nothing out of the ordinary. I took it to my smith and he could see nothing but thought the side to side movement was sloppy.

The gun is a 2007 model and has had only a few boxes fired.

So the questions remains why would you be screwing with your trigger back and forth before firing and what are the chances of my son doing this while handling this gun?

We will have to let someone else answer that as there will be a new Timney trigger installed before this thing does any more shooting. I have a couple already and love them.

For 200 bucks it just didn't seem like something to even think about.

I am not bashing Remington and if I could have seen something that identified a problem I might have considered using it IF it were my rifle.

For a fifteen year old it just is not an option to not have 100% confidence in his equipment being safe.
 
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