Remington's kiss of death

Bowie

Bowie

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I was thinking about a comment made on another thread about how many Remington introduced cartridges, no matter how good, are destined to fail. Consider for a moment: The .17 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, 5mm, 6mm, 6.5 Rem Mag, .350 Rem Mag, all the SAUMs, and the RUMs except perhaps the .300. Even the .280 (though IMHO it is the superior cartridge) doesn't come even close to the .270 in terms of popularity.
Yet, we see the success of of some truely oddball stuff introduced by other companies: The .17 HMR, .450 Marlin, .204 Ruger and the red-headed stepchild of them all, the .323 WSM. Seriously - a 8mm in a short/fat magnum? Why the h#&& not a proper .338?

Anyways, to serves to show how much good marketing and customer support matters (ie. Ruger/Hornady), and also what a fickle lot we as shooters are.

And I blame the Americans (largely due to Jack O'Connor) for the proliferation of the .277, when the whole rest of the world recognizes it should be .264, or .284.
 
and look at how proud browning owners are of there over priced rifles! how many remington stickers do you see on the back of a truck?
i agree it's sad but you need to get you're stuff on the outdoor,sportsman,and wild t.v. and have em shoot soem big deer in the high shoulder on a farm so they drop in their tracks in order to have a successfull new cartrige!!
don't forget the 221 remington fireball....i still want 1!!
 
and how many has Winchester intro'd that failed for one reason or another?...not defending Remington but they all introduced a few duds....

Winchester cartridges that didn't "make it"

284 Win,..introduced in the wrong rifles?..downloaded for the Model 100?.....in a short action Model 70 it might have had a chance...,.....264 Win Mag,..just a loud 270?.........307,a supercharged 30-30 with a heavier barrel?....356..what was that all about?....225 Win...a replacement for the Swift?...hardly..... 375 Win....reviving the 38-55 in a newer package?....7mmWSM......Winny killed this one by promoting the 270WSM over the 7mm version.....makes one wonder why they introduced something so close to thier own 270 darling....
 
"...they all introduced a few duds..." Yep. All of 'em have to bring out new stuff regularly or risk losing market share. Not all of it catches on. The worst part is that the marketing types will discontinue a cartridge with no regard for the people who bought whatever.
 
Although it appears Remmington designed a bunch of looser, at least they were trying.
And they got some right as well .223,22-250,25-06,7-08,7mag,416.
Winchester made some loosers too.
.219,225,220swift,256,264,7-30,284,307,33,348,356,358.
 
With Wincheser, a lot of their cartridge flops seem centered around lever actions. The .284 in the Model 88. The .307, .356, .375, and the 7-30 Waters (not a winchester round per se, but chambered in the '94). With rifles, they dropped the ball on their lever actions also. The .218 Bee is a varmit round which should be in an accurate rifle, and preferably suited for a scope. Instead Winchester chambers it for the model '65. Then you have the whole 1964 fiasco, not to mention the model 88. A rifle which was designed 60+years after the Savage 99, but with a trigger pull which was on par with an average chinese SKS. And whats with all the gaudy '94 commeratives? And chambering the fancy 1990s '94s in pistol cartridges? Why not in a '92 like they were designed for, and which is prettier action?
 
The 7RM is Remingtons crowning glory. It's the only one that really stands out. The .223 is great and popular of course, but I htink it was a 5.56 prior to a .223, so Remington can't take credit.

The RUMS are deader than dead. The one slight holdout is the .300RUM, but they aren't selling well. The .338 RUM has some fans as a "poor mans .338 Lapua" but it's a niche cartridge. The RUMS were sizzle when they came out until people realized that fw of them did anything better than thier counterparts, and the expense was extra powder and recoil.

That said, Remington has made some great rifles and shotguns.
 
Some done well by Remington:

22-250 Rem
.223 Rem
6BR (standardized by Norma, but originally Remington)
25-06 Rem
260 Rem
7mm-08 Rem
7mm Rem Mag

Not a bad list of winners.
 
I wouldn't put the 450 Marlin and the 323 WSM in the sucess list yet, I would bet that they are bound for failure like most if not all of the new Ruger magnums.
 
Sure they have some good ones, and I do like the 700 and model 7s, 870 and 1100s but they haven't had a hit in years, with either their guns or cartridges. For successful cartridges, it was the early 80s with the 7-08, and perhaps the .260. Since then it has been the RUM and SUAMs. For firearms we got some s**tty Russian shotguns and the 710. And the ugliest double rifles on the face of the earth. Then they dropped the model 7 and the nice Ti 700. Go figure.
 
Hindsight is 20/20 o course, but if Remington development braniacs shoudl have done this:

Looked at the RUm case and said:

There is always a small market for guys that think they will be god like by shooting the biggest baddest cartridge, but Weatherby dominates that

We can dominate the Long range market by introducing a 338 RUM and 7RUM and a HB tacticool rifle to go with it. Wildcatters will neck it up and down and do our dirty work for us, we will see if the other calibers have promise

Most hunters are looking for a somewhat compact rifle that will have the same power as a bigger rifle, so:

We will make the RUM case into a 375 that fits in standard actions (like the 375 RUger) and make it in a rifle similar to the Ruger Alaskan

We will cut down the RUM case and make the SAUM for .338, .300 and 7mm and 270 and make lighter rifles for mountain hunting.

Instead, they went with the "bigger is better" option and introduced all the full size RUMs to little interest.

They could have owned the short magnum market, owned the 375 Ruger market and owned the 'average Joe" long range market.

Instead they introduced duds in normal hunting rifles with the RUM's and introduced the SAUMs too late.

.
 
It's too bad they delayed the SAUMs because they offer some advantages over the WSMs. Why Ruger would jump on board with their own now though is unbelievable.

Ruger does do some cool stuff though, especially with the #1s. I love that they reintroduce some classic calibers in that rifle. I wish they would do a 1A sporter in 6.5x55 next.
 
The .222 Remington has not been mentioned yet. Had it not been for military needs ending in another excellent Remington cartridge, the .223, this cartridge could even have been more popular.
I would venture to guess, along with the 7mm Remington Magnum, these are most likely the most successful Remington cartridges, purely in sales.
 
Any thought about the possibility we have 4-5 times as many cartridges than are needed to cover the range of sporting rifles, and any "new" ones that are developed are just marketing spin? Remington needs to get back to making good accurate rifles like Savage is now doing, if they have not forgotten how.

If you get right down to it, do we need anything more than what Lapua makes brass for?
 
Ron AKA said:
Any thought about the possibility we have 4-5 times as many cartridges than are needed to cover the range of sporting rifles, and any "new" ones that are developed are just marketing spin? Remington needs to get back to making good accurate rifles like Savage is now doing, if they have not forgotten how.

If you get right down to it, do we need anything more than what Lapua makes brass for?
Click to expand...

Well, yes and no.

New cartridges keep interest in shooting up, not a bad thing.

Plus, it's fun.
 
I don't think cartridge development will ever stop. There will always be the perfected ones from the past 100yrs that will remain. The ones that been proven will always have a following.
Some of the new cartridges that have taken off are the WSM's and many die hards have taken to it. New powders come out and better brass bring on new ideas or revive old ones.

True, Remington and others have made duds, but all of them have made them before in the past too. Most of us aren't old enough to have seen it before. Marketing still lives and I'm sure there will be a new run of cartridges in future to kick start more sales. The trend has been sharper shouldered, fat, short cases.
IMO, that is a good thing. I'd rather work up loads using a 7 WSM than a 7 Rem Mag.
 
And I blame the Americans (largely due to Jack O'Connor) for the proliferation of the .277, when the whole rest of the world recognizes it should be .264, or .284.[/QUOTE]

In southern Ontario at least I believe the popularity of the .270 is largely due to the fact that it is the largest rifle we could carry in the small game feilds and still take it hunting for deer or moose in the fall. When fathers and uncles do this it is natural for sons and dauhters to follow. Over the years I have read only small pieces of Jack O`conner (much more Elmer actually) and I love the .270. But now hunt mostly with big bores.
 
The Americans are some of the greatest tinkerers (what?) in the world and it is in their nature to want to find an improved solution. However, I think that some gun people really suffer from OCD in wanting to build a better mousetrap.

Cartridge 'development' will never stop.
 
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